What is Cash for Clunkers (C.A.R.S.) Doing for YOU?

Mindy, where did you get that info? Your dealership fronted the money to the customer, and then you are paid directly into your dealership account the $3500 or $4500 by the NHTSA via CitiGroup - so why would General Motors (US Motor Liquidation Co.) need that money that your dealership fronted, without interest?

P.S. Of the 82 submitted deals for CARS, we've been paid on 80, with just 2 Under Review - one of them since July 28th!

P.P.S. For those of you who submitted these for your dealership, I hope they paid you very handsomely for your tireless efforts.

i have had one approval left for three days, why do you mock me nhtsa?

I understand that after my invoice is paid, I have to submit a payment voucher supplied by the government to General Motors. Does anyone know how to access the payment vouchers?

Let's face facts, this is a mainly a dealer exchange, we understand the ins and outs of our business and why some dealers did what they did, they tried to make sure they kept their doors open when the government didn't pay out in a timely fashion (the nerve of those assholes).

Another thing to keep in mind is you only see a handful of customers bitching throughout this thread when in reality 700,000 people made purchases, overall it looks like most dealers followed the guidelines or customers understood the risk the dealer was taking and were willing to work with them.

So I guess the best thing to do is look at this in a positive light, because we all know you would have still be driving your clunker for quite a bit longer than the month these dealer inconvenienced you. The only reason these customers bought was the government rebate, so be happy, you are driving or will be driving a new car soon and you won't need to carry your supply of duct tape a bailing wire with you anymore.

Oh yea, I am glad this will get back to a being a dealer forum now.

Yikes, so much tension, you could cut it with a knife. A knife that will have to be scanned, converted to a pdf file and sent as a legible attament to the NHTSA for review. My dealership has several knives rejected, but we are about 50% paid on the sales of 84 cars under this program. Thank Goodness we had, and still have available capital for this. This is the part that consumers do not know or care about. If the dealer was on this program, then that dealer was under the impression the they would be loaning the money to the NHTSA while they processed these documents to then pay the dealer back. We, like many are still waiting for in most cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and have been for nearly two months. You are all welcome, and thanks for participating in the program.

Last-Last-Last thing: my SINCERE aplogies to John Quinn at Reed-Lallier. I HONESTLY am not John Quinn from Reed-Lallier. I was very confused by the reference until I googled it myself. Next time, I'll try to pick a name that's not already in use!!

I was done here too, but one last thought: It's been very interesting to see the chasm here between Dealers and Consumers. Obviously, the Dealers on this (Dealer) forum are "in the know" here: this is our business, our livelihood -- we know what we are talking about -- we are the professionals in this equation. As such we often tend to forget (at least I do -- and it's 13+ years for me here...) how EMOTIONAL people get about their cars. And while it can provide a chuckle (or several chuckles :)), or provide a headache, it actually can be one of the nicer parts of our job: for every one of "those" people that just can't be pleased no-matter-what, there are many of those who actually "love" their new cars, become friends with their salespeople for life, and make this job fun. So Deb -- don't let the few bother you. You can see how the dealers on this string have attempted to factually, locically explain to the consumers (on this DEALER forum) what's really happening, only to be completely ignored by irrational, emotionally-charged thought processes. And that's OK -- I'm the same way at the Doctor's office: I hate sitting in that waiting room! Even though logically I know that the Doctor and his staff have no intention of frustrating me, and are doing the best they can, it's easy to get annoyed (emotional) and topical to "slam" the encounter when relating my woes to Aunt Betty. That's just the way we're wired, I guess. We're going to make our point, find the facts we think support our cause (twist them to fit if we have to), and complain. So at the end of the day, you (and by "you" I mean "we," "us," "everyone")can sit back and either be thankful for your good fortune, or complain about how unfair life is: we all know people on both sides of that aisle. So this is my last clunker post: at the end of the day, 700,000 consumers got a "freebie" from the government, dealers got their first decent month in almost 2 years, there were some problems, and some difficulties, it was tough, it was fun. There will always be the people that complain, but the majority of the people -- and I helped several hundred -- were thrilled with the program and couldn't believe their good fortune. I'll stick with those folks, and continue to bend-over backward when any of them ever need anything. Take care!! :)

I want to thank the car dealership people who answered my questions earlier in quest for understanding the program, what was right, what was wrong, how things work.

I still have great respect for those who did it right AND I must now add, showed respect for the customer behind the water cooler as well as in the showroom.

I am sorry my frustration at non compliant dealers caused Kim any further distress by the comments of Mr. John Quinn. Mr. Quinn, General Sales Manager, for me negated some of the positive attitude I had developed towards those who claim to have done it right-delivered the car on the first day of sales etc. I asked him to correct where I was wrong because I happen to genuinely want to know and have no problem admitting when I misunderstand or do not understand something. I have less patience for hiding ignorance as a means to what? A false impression? More bad information, or ignorance? I do not work in the auto industry. I don't expect all who do to know everything about any one else's profession or day to day procedures. I sought information from all the sources I could, including the manufacturer-at many levels, lawmakers in the government who crafted the C4C, the usual suspects in this program-NHTSA, the CARS hotline, the dealership I worked with, dealerships I didn't work with etc.

Unfortunately, Reed-Lallier dealership, who I have no cause to doubt followed the rules, now, in my mind has a bruise. Is there a dealership who doesn't claim the importance of Customer Service and Professionalism in describing their business and their employees? I thought and continue to think highly of my salesperson. I came to the conclusion that his dealership did not give him all the information he should have had, did not train him completely/properly on the program. However, that did not absolve the dealership and all the other management who, like Mr. Quinn, were in charge of submitting paperwork, were in charge of the program for their dealership, the owner and the finance manager -all who made statements and claims that were not in line with the program etc. They could have done things differently and chose not to.

Good luck to all those who do things right in the auto industry. You have a tough image problem to overcome.

My background happens to be in Customer Service for a Fortune 500 company. I have trained countless personnel to provide Customer Service to those who chose to do business with us. It is easiest to provide CS when the customer is happy. It is more of a challenge and telling of the quality of the individual and organization when the customer is not. Good CS can be had even when circumstances beyond your control come into play. Much of that lies in communication, education and honesty.

For those unjustly accused or included in negative comments you have my apologies and sympathy.
I have learned a good deal here.

Well Deb for the record both my husband and I work hard also. I have 3 children in college and one of them getting married next year. I do think about all of you and the work you do. But you don't know who or what we have had to deal with. I expected our dealership to tell us the truth, but each time we talked to them it was one lie after another, and the sad thing is they couldn't even keep there lies in line from one person to the next. So, if your dealership is different than that Great! and Thanks, I am sure that your customers must love you. I wish I could say the samething about ours. (Maybe it's because once there stock is sold they are down to only one line and possibly losing that also).

I wasn't going to comment any further but the more I thought about Kim and Ann's posts the more infuriated I became. Therefore I need to say briefly that ladies you are welcome. The fact that I work hard and can afford a newer vehicle did not give me the opportunity to take advantage of this program. However, again because I work hard, my taxes enabled you to purchase new vehicles. As my taxes go up via increase in income, utilities, soda(!?)
I'll be thinking of you far longer than you will be of a dealer that was trying to protect their business. I believe you owe your neighbors, employers, and family a thank you.

Mr. John Quinn we need more of you in Washington!!!!

John, no need for personal attacks. Let's keep things civil here. I'm sure the owners of Reed-Lallier wouldn't condone that sort of public display.

Glad to give you your chuckle! It is amazing what some people find funny!

Actually, we delivered all of our cars same day, and our unsolicited surveys have been wonderful... but another gem my Mammy taught me: Never get into a battle of wits with an unarmed person. (The "gull" of it all... tehe...tooooo much!! ahahahaha). So, I will withhold further comments -- thanks for the chuckle! :)

I can't believe the gull of some people. (John Quinn) Buying a new car is a very big step for some people, not only a big step but an expensive one also. To treat customers the way a large portion of us were treated simply amazes me. Ann I agree with you, my memory will be very long it will be a very very long time if ever that I walk back into the dealership where we made our purchase. Then they have the nerve to ask us to call them with any problems BEFORE we fill out our survey from the manufacture. But you probably don't see a problem with that either. I plan to write the truth on my survey about the whole experience of buying the largest purchase I have made in almost 10 years. I hope and pray it will be that long again. I don't know if I could stomach dealing with dealerships run by the likes of you. Like I said Thanks again for making something that should have been a happy time miserable. If you didn't want to follow the rules you should have dropped out of the program! No one twisted your arm and said Please, Please, Please stay in the program. Your greed is what keep you there, you know can't miss a sale. Think about it customers will be thinking about it for a long time! Ann I hope that you finally were able to get your car.

That is an interesting and telling way to choose to live your life.
I hope your life is not exceedingly full of secrets.

I am not afraid to be educated, corrected, and apologize where it is apparent it is needed.

Feel free to explain what is correct and I will learn from it.

I would rather be called on being wrong so I can know what is true then to take on a life lived on secrets and bad info.

I choose to keep my ignorance of a given topic a secret. Might want to look into that... :)

So, John Quinn, the attitude seems to be- If they are RULES and not LAWS that we (dealership) agreed to then breaking them is okay.
That is a problem. Some dealerships chose not to participate because they decided the rules did not fit in with their own rules or other factors, it seems some dealers followed the rules, though it hasn't been easy, others didn't follow the rules while agreeing to follow the rules- those dealers shouldn't feel so smug about it. They have burned bridges with potential repeat customers at the least. I have respect for the first 2 types of dealers and none for the latter-okay a smidgen of sympathy but not much. There were plenty who treated their customers horribly-lies, falsified paperwork and threats- that was my experience. Totally turned me off from that dealership and likely buying new again. If I do buy new I have a memory of the dealerships in my state who represent a certain brand and who played by the rules and who didn't. That is the advantage of a small population state and a long memory.

The buyers weren't supposed to receive an "entitlement". It was a program meant to stimulate the economy that dealers could VOLUNTARILY sign up to participate in with the understanding that meant they would follow the rules. This was to be between the dealers and the government not the buyer and the government. All the talk AT customers absolving dealers of being anything but middleman was part of the shenanigans. The agreements presented for people to sign, the leave a check or credit card number so we can have the customer pay if the government payment doesn't come through was wrong! All the falsified paperwork where someone puts their neck on the line that the clunkers were off the road, or a new car was off the lot and the warranty started when that wasn't the case makes dealers look bad, not the customers and not the government.

Hi Deb -- I've seen that quite a bit too -- usually the money hits the bank account before the statuses get changed. Statuses catch-up in a day or two -- no worries. "Losing Patience" -- what most of the public doesn't realize is that the NHTSA made-up many of these rules on-the-fly. I can't tell you have many "oh-yeah, this is what we meant to say" rules went into effect after all of this launched. Consumers seem to think that these "rules" were "laws" -- this program was completely off-the-cuff and run by the seat of a few peoples' pants -- there's no "law" here -- just a set of hastily composed guidelines.. At the end of the day, if the government would have come-out and said, "We're going to give you $4500, but you'll have to wait 4 weeks (6 weeks, 6 months) to get your car -- would you have said no?? I doubt it. So I do have to chuckle a bit at the sense of entitlement so many consumers seem to have: Give Me My Free Money, and Give It To Me Now! It's My Right! haha... we have to chuckle a bit at that, don't we?

I was just about to open the champagne...
then I looked at the invoice list.
Looks like they have yet another computer glitch.
There are invoices I've been paid on that are now showing under review. The email that we were supposed to receive on invoices paid has yet to arrive on any of them.
Now I'm worried that this confusion may cause payment issues on those not paid yet. However it may work in my favor and I will be paid twice for certain invoices. Since they have my bank account number I suppose they can withdraw just as easy as they can deposit, not very comforting.

Lori, I understand that the approval process was out of my dealership's hands once the paperwork was submitted. However, what I am not happy about is that my dealership did not play by the rules. My new car was not released until the paperwork was approved, which was in direct violation of the federal mandates. The car that I am picking up is in high demand and I was lucky to find one that was available to begin with... that is why I didn't have the option of completing my transaction at another dealership who would have abided by the rules. I'm sure I'll be happy with the car though, so in the end everything turned out okay.

Attn: losing patience and all those waiting

Please keep in mind at the dealership is on your side and for the most part all dealers are trying thier best to get the paperwork completed and all deals finished. I assure we don't enjoy the waiting anymore than you do. Don't hold it against the dealer for future sales and service business. It is just not fair to the dealer who has tried and in fact spent probably twice as much time working on your deal than most other customers. The hold up is the government who thought 200 workers could handle process half a million requests on a 10 day turn around.

All the GMs are sleeping, but in their mail box,
Are hundreds of rejects, that will affect their DOC’s,

There’ll be, bad registration, deceased spouse and problems with Summary of Sale,
Proof of insurance, corporate resolution and oh by the way your VIN is a Fail.

There’ll be rejects for no reason, which drive us around the bend
and back at our “clunker head quarters” we just want this to end.

But we are waiting, with blank forms and rules,
And at the end of this day we'll need some booz

-Kevin Leigh

Finally got approval on the clunker today and will be picking up the new car tomorrow! 37 days after putting down a deposit and 35 days after the paperwork was submitted. Happy about finally getting the go-ahead to pick up the car but still left with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Help! I am getting the same message that Jeff did, but I am not in NH and need to get past this error:
"Failed to create invoice. A fatal error occurred while committing this transaction to the database. Please contact our Accounts Payable department so we can notify our system administrator"
Any ideas???

I understand the doubt folks, but the Major Car manufactures have already agreed on a Common Plug for the Electric Cars that will Plug into the Smart Grid. It's not a Conspiracy Theory. Many in my family are in the "energy Distribution" field, the Smart Grid is going Live as early as next year in some major Cities. Hawaii has agreed to become totally Smart Grid Compatible in the next several years. This is the Future...realize it now...Or realize it when it happens. Makes no difference to me.

When you are standing in Your Home watching the Utility Company Controling your Thermostat and you are driving an Electric Car that is plugged into the Smart Grid, you will remember what I have said...and it won't seem so funny then.

How many of you thought 2 years ago that the Federal Government would be Running GM and dictating Pay to CEO's?

But hey, you can lead a Horse to Water, but you can't make them Drink.

Good Luck

thanks john, adding a new attachment without clicking the update button has been working great, hover they stay in rejected status..now we keep a record of rejections, their reason, what was done and when.
On a higher note, we are 50% paid with about one approval every other day.
good luck everyone!

Thanks for getting back on this... not so worried and will check status later today... appreciate your comments John and will try to relax here

Jeff & Mindy -- relax! Both have happened dozens of times here. Jeff -- don't bother with a new attachment -- make your point in the notes, and then re-submit. Mindy -- the site is VERY slow to update statuses -- we've had everything from no status listed, to rejected deals staying "rejected" even after we re-submit, to "Approved" deals that are actually paid. Once you have the deal re-submitted, don't sweat the status -- it'll change. As far as still getting rejected for rediculous reasons -- 2 recent good ones: Our "5's" look like "S's" on the Summary -- please re-write. And yesterday: No Salvage Certificate (none required!!). So above all, remember this when re-submitting deals: SPELL IT OUT like you're talking to a moron, because chances are, you just may be...

Sorry to hear about your problem Jeff... I have not experienced that one yet but just had a wierd deal happen... I had 1 reject because the trade-in vin did not match the trade title... i verified the vins matched... so i resubmitted with a note on the invoice description section... i cliked on next... and then submit... logged off and back in to find that it actually was not resubmitted and remains in a "rejected" status... but now, the ability to resubit is not available so it's just hanging out there... anyone run across this one and have a fix they could share? i am FREAKING OUT!!! this is the most frustrating disasterous program of ALL TIME! Please let me know if anyoine has a fix... thanks

has anyone gotten this? i've been running into it for two days, and I am freaking out. I'm in NH and most of my rejections are for no proof of insurance, when there's none required. I try to resubmit an attachment explaing this and when I go to resubmit, I get this:
Error

Failed to create invoice. A fatal error occurred while committing this transaction to the database. Please contact our Accounts Payable department so we can notify our system administrator.
What the hell?

I'm sorry -- could you repeat that? I didn't quite get it, I must be in some type of induced trance state; kinda like a lamb, blithely -- and willingly -- going to slaughter. So maybe one more time and I'll get it. Thanks! (By the way, Bellview called, said to remind you that your 72-hour pass is about to expire)

You guys have the same degree of "insight" and "intellectual acuity" as the "experts" at the SEC, who repeatedly dismissed Markopolos' warnings and accurate assessments of Madoff's pyramid scheme. It’s amazing to see the degree to which most of the populace are in a type of induced trance state; like lambs, blithely -and willingly- going to slaughter.

I love the Internet.

AHAHA! Usually you have to be in a bar sitting next to the town wacko to get this kind if witty repartee! How did a conversation between dealers and consumers about vehicle transactions turn into a Mel Gibson movie?

Hmm? I wonder if that UFO I saw last night was part of the smart grid? I think it had a G.M. badge on the front....... sorry couldn't resist :)

I guess Patch Adams and Joe Diaz missed the sign above, eh?

@ chris @John Quinn: Patch W Adams is not being satirical, the trends he describes are unfolding daily. Unfortunately, most people are unaware of the profound implications of current events (national, international, economic, political, ideological, technological). It's amazing to see the degree to which most of the populace are in a type of induced trance state; like lambs, blithely -and willingly- going to slaughter.

Chris -- haha! This string was getting so long, we were bound to see something like this. There's one in every crowd! ahahaha...

Patch W Adams. With all of this getting people so hot under the collar I hope your satire was not lost here! Of course, if you are serious, well.....WOW!! LOL

Ann, you should have your vehicle. I was in the same situation. I told my dealership that the NHTSA as well as the CARS hotline confirmed that I should have gotten my car the day of the deal. The NHTSA also requested that I report the dealership to them, and that the dealership could face fines if they refuse to deliver the vehicle. Tell the GM that under the rules of the program, they should not be waiting for the government money, and that the NHTSA has requested that you report the dealership to them because of this violation (and that they can expect fines if refusing to deliver your new car). Also, when the NHTSA made this a new CARS requirement to deliver the vehicles, they also gave the dealerships the option to opt out of the program if they couldn’t afford to get rid of the cars before receiving payment. Instead, your dealership (and many others) are bending the rules of the program in order to sell more vehicles. As a result, they are taking away the consumers clearly outlined rights under the program.

Maybe the dealer GMs are more stubborn in my state but talking with the GM didn't produce results. He says the state law says it is illegal for the federal government to tell him how to run his business and that he can decide not to release the vehicle until he receives approval on the voucher. I am still paying insurance on the trade in vehicle that is signed over to the dealership, the warranty is running on the car that is on the lot. The GM says I should be okay with the warranty since my estimation of how much I drive would make the warranty mileage driven not time driven. Bottom line he won't release the car, he tells me it is my option whether to turn my clunker in to his lot and he can arrange for someone to pick it up if I decide that is what I want to do. Also, signing an agreement to pay $4500 or return the car has fine print which states I would be responsible for depreciation and other costs involved with using the car if I decide to return it.
State AG office seems surprised that the fed government refers me to them for problems with a federal program.

This Program is designed to Destroy the Used Car Market so that eventually People will only have a Choice between a Government Made Smart car or a Government Made Smart car.

That is the only Reason for the Government to Demand the Destruction of the Used Cars and to restrict the Program to New Cars only. This will Drive up the Cost of Used Cars and Drive Used Car Dealers out of Business Faster. Eventually this will leave nothing on the Market but Battery Powered Government created/approved Vehicles. It's called Behavioral Economics.

This Program was a Test for a More Permanent Program later. Probably to be inserted into the Senate Bill for Cap and Trade. It is all about the Smart Grid.

The Government wants you to have to Drive a Plug in Electric Vehicle so that it has to Plug into the Smart Grid. This will give them the Power to track your movements, TAx you by the Mile and in Conjunction with Cap and Trade, allow them to restrict your CO2 Output.

If you don't know what the Smart Grid is...you better soon. Some of it is going on Line Next Year...

As far as not getting paid and why it seems so confusing, that is obvious. It's called Thinning the Herd.

The Goverment is hoping some of you guys that are Not Government Run, will go out of Business when they tell you that you are not getting paid. That is so that there are fewer choices and down the Road the Public will only be able to Choose from a
Government Created Smart Car...Or a Government Created Smart Car...

Wake up...You are Helping in your Own Destruction. They are using your Greed against you....

Anne,
Here is the update from our car purchase.
We picked up our car last night. Salesman treated us great, had a crud remark from another employee. Our pick up was not with out a few glitches but the were small and got worked out quickly. Hope your situation gets worked out soon.

Ann, if it makes you feel any better, we are in the same boat. We put a deposit on the new car on Aug. 4th, the dealer submitted paperwork on Aug. 6th and as of today, the dealer still won't release the car. They claim that they aren't waiting for the reimbursement, just the approval. They didn't want the clunker initially but had us drop it off on Aug. 15th. I didn't and still don't have much faith in their knowledge of the C4C process and have a feeling that the application will be rejected during the first review, which means that there's still a long wait ahead of us after they resubmit whatever they neglected to send initially. Luckily, we have two other cars that we can use, but it would be nice to get this whole process done with! >>edit -- We signed over the title to our clunker as well, so there's no turning back!

Would you mind sharing what changed and how?

Disregard, NO Help needed, we are picking up our car tomorrow!!! :-D

IS there any recourse for the consumer who is still waiting on their new car purchased over 5 weeks ago through C4C? This doesn't seem right. Herb Chambers in Massachusetts is one of the dealers that won't give out the new car. They want their money first. I would have never purchased from them had I known they would not go by the rules of the program. You would think they care more about customer service and their reputation, but they don't. Cheers to Ernie Boch for giving out the new cars like the rules said. Shame on you Herb Chambers!

Now the car dealers know what it's like to be a physician. The problems they are describing are the same ones physicians have in dealing with Medicare, CHAMPUS, Medicaid and other government medical programs. I hope the car dealers recoup more then most physicians do from government sponsored programs.

@ Ann, I'm not aware of a way to cancel a 'pending approval' claim. My understanding is that we can only modify a claim when it goes into a reject status in order to make corrections. I can check with my admin staff on Monday to get clarification on that and post more then. In the meantime, the dealership doesn't want to take the remainder of your money because that would consummate the sale and would leave them with no reason to hold your car. It would also start the clock ticking for them to submit payment to their bank prior to receiving the CARS rebate for the full amount of the vehicle if they finance their inventory. In the end, I believe that once you talk to the GM you should see some results. Have a great weekend and I will post on Monday after I find out about if a claim can be cancelled that's in a pending approval status.