Autotrader.com Annual Sales Meeting 2009 – Another Side of AutoTrader?

Thanks for your post David. I know it seems as if when AutoTrader.com is mentioned here on DealerRefresh, little positiveness comes out of it. I've heard mentioned through out the industry that DealerRefresh is sorta known as the "Anti-AutoTrader website" but that has never been the intention. When you're the big man on campus, you no doubt get more scrutiny and have less room for mess ups without it being noticed. And no doubt AT has made some mistakes and it's obvious that there was some lack of effective leadership throughout the organization.

One thing I have always kept in mind (and this goes for a lot of businesses), when a company grows as fast as AutoTrader.com has (and in a relativity new vertical) mistakes will be made, decisions are made with no examples to compare to. Look at Amazon; on the consumer surface they seem snug but on the logistics side, not always so.

I've personally always been successful using AutoTrader.com, while also knowing that you have to work the system to the max in order to do so. Hearing that there will be NO price increases until 2010 is positive news, as long as they don't make up for it in 2010.

As you mentioned, "Some battleships can’t turn quickly in the ocean. Let’s just give them some time...and maybe a second chance". Only time will tell and If they don't walk the walk, I'm sure we will all hear about it.

Nice post David, exactly how much kool aid did you drink in Vegas?

Good to hear that the winds of change are blowing at Autotrader but, frankly, I'll believe it when I see it. For years they have taken advantage of dealers and many of us have been left jaded. I have a great relationship with cars.com. I know many that feel good about their relationship with Cars.com. They are very supportive and their rates are reasonable.

With that said, its encouraging to hear that the new leadership is desirous for change.

In Response to Andrew Wright

Cars.com? Come on man when is the last time they told you they were not going to raise the rates? 14 million viewers per month vs 8 or 9 million. I am dealer that users both and I like what I see with ATC.

Very interesting post. I think that all of us on the vendor partner side have a common goal this year. Projections are that it is going to be a rocky ride for the industry and those of us that are truly partners need to step up to the plate and help our dealers any way that we can. I know that readers of DR know the importance of online marketing in '09, but not all ISMs and GMs read DR. We feel the burden to educate on changing consumer habits and believe that our ability to help our dealers in this regard may be the difference between some of our dealers writing paychecks or resumes.

Bob, what dealership do you work for exactly? Pardon my skepticism, but on the heels of such a favorable post for autotrader.com, these jabs seem a little, opportunistic. I'm sure your cars.com rep would be happy to talk to you about monthly searches on our partnership sites as well as our main site and engagement metrics which are really more important then viewers per month. Here is my personal email address if you want to take it offline. [email protected]

Thanks for spreading the positive message David. I had the pleasuure of meeting you in Vegas and I have to say that the best part of our meeting this year was having the input from the dealers. Chip even gave you guys the opportunity to lay it on the line and point out the problems with ATC and it's reps, but you all took the highroad. Thanks again for your contributions to our training and I hope the company brings more dealers next year, maybe even some that aren't as successful with their advertising on ATC....now that would be something. A couple of nay sayers in a room with 1000 ATC sales reps. They could put that on TV.

David,

This was an amazing post. You really a true humble and professional with class. I like the respect that you show and your willingness to give something a chance.

I am glad to see this new approach from ATC. Dealers in my market are truly starting to notice the changes and appreciate them again. I can’t tell you how many conversations I have had with dealers saying to me “I’m considering cutting out Autotrader.” I always advise my dealer partners against this. I ask them instead to hold all of their providers to a higher standard and to align their ad spend with what is actually generating the most traffic. Their feedback is usually along the lines of “I do understand that AT works but their service and rates are terrible” We all know that for years Dealers have relied on traditional media at a much higher cost and very little in the way of metrics. The difference was the presence of the reps. Traditional media reps are not spread as thin and understand that there is a direct correlation between perceived service and the number of interactions with the dealer. In 2009 Cars and ATC will be focusing on building stronger relationships within the dealership and becoming true partners to their dealers. Those of you that have seen the latest Synovate study understand that online efforts deliver four times more traffic through your front doors than traditional media.

Quite often one question that seems to surface is “Who’s better ATC or Cars?” I like to answer this question by asking “Why wouldn’t you want both?” If they both have close to a $200 million dollar advertising campaign(designed to drive traffic to your inventory), both are recognized as industry leaders, both provide quality reps and service, both have an acceptable ROI, and both deliver different in market car buyers. I ask again “Why wouldn’t you want the advantages of having both?” If you were selling an online department store product would you only want traffic from Wal-mart.com or would you also like the customer base from Target.com? Bravo to ATC for wanting to provide their dealer partners with a higher level of service! If you are a truly consultative sales rep then you understand that your dealer’s online success with both Cars.com and Autotrader.com is in your best interest. Let’s work together in 2009 to provide our mutual dealer partners with the level of service the DESERVE and assist them in transitioning their dollars from traditional media to more effective online solutions.

IMO, the AT rant here is all about value. Sure we get leads. WHEN WE DISCOUNT! No discount, NO LEADS.

Many of the DR crew here were around when AT was just a baby. Rates were cheap and dealer competition was sparse. The result was lotsa leads for little money. As a bonus, AT had little competition, The Early adopters were rewarded.

AT deserved to raise its rates. It's only mis-step is it used NewsPrint as the "gold standard". AT felt that dealers were going to spend $3-400 PVR,so why not move most of it to AT?

Profit PVR is NOT what it was in the good 'ol newsprint days. AT and the internet have decimated the old school dealer model and whyinhell use old school ad models to justify AT's value? It just pisses me off when I hear this pitch.

The ENTIRE Newsprint industry is crawling into the fetal position and sucking their thumb. AT is a web site, it has none of the legacy costs that newsprint has. AT can cut rates and survive. Newsprint... DOA.

oLd FaT & haPPy

OFH newspaper isn't even a competitor to us anymore. great you have the knowledge about print but we do compete against radio and TV as well. glad our team all came from traditional media. we help dealers rewrite their schedules all the time. same exposure, lower spend and WE get the $$$$ thanks for the business dealers! the blessing is, we don't get complaints from our dealers and haven't in over 2 years. guess this market hired the right people with the right relationships. our customers even run our meetings. nice to see ATC did it so sales reps can here good and bad.

bought my first AT contract in 2000 for $199 . Heck it was free before then , Manheim would post my cars right after I bought them at the sale . I have always sold cars from online ads . Has the value deminished since my free listings ? Depends how you look at it . If you look at from my cost ......free in 2000 to $2500.00 today in 2009 ....well yes, it's more money , but as I look at from my ability to sell more cars to more people and getting my prospects the best information to help them make the best decision for them .....well , yes I make less per unit , to be competative , howewever...... when ATC started in 2000 they had less than 200k cars online and less than 500k visits per month . They now have 3.5 million cars listed and 12mill. visits per month !!! Honestly , I hope other dealers will drop ATC , thats more looks on MY cars . I can't find any other media who will bring me more trackable , qualified prospects to my inventory . Last time we surveyed our sold clients , 78 % used the internet to find their car . I agree ATC grew very fast and became arrogant with the "you need us attitude" . Bottom line .....they/ATC built the largest pond , stocked it with the most fish/(my inventory) and has attracked the most fishermen/(on-line shoppers) . If I was not on-line , I would be out of business today .

i-autoknow,

That was really well written, very creative! Be sure to stop around more often!

Joe
p.s. HAS ANYONE's USED CAR BIZ JUMPED WAY UP THIS MONTH?

Nice post David. If ATC sticks by the things they said during that Vegas meeting, then they are on the right track! I would like to become an ATC fan again.

I think part of the challenge is that the more dealers that are on Autotrader the more diluted the value becomes but the higher they raise their prices. This inverse relationship provides a huge dilema for ATC and on the dealer side. If someone does a search for a 2007 Honda in your area and there are 1000 in the search results, what are the chances of you you receiving that lead? Yeah, I know you gotta "makes sure you have pictures and descriptions, and blah blah" I'm sure most on DR are already doing the basics. Then you pay for "premium listings" or "spotlights" or these other "added value" features. I just shake my head because it's a tough cake to bake. Once again, I'm always satisfied with the reps but in this market sometimes that's just not enough.

I have been with ATC for six years, I have been through & part of those infamous blitz's & adding the dealers..."what have you done for me today". As an advertising consultant (& in mgmnt for approx a year) I will say that not only did I appreciate your article, I very much appreciate the direction we are headed. Being in sales all my life I realize this is all built on relationships, & going back to the "core" values that make us successful. Not only do I believe we'll stay the path on great customer service...I KNOW we will! (by the way, I REALLY enjoyed yor class!)

I appreciate the nice comments about the post. It was easy to write because I really felt like they are doing the right things for us, their customers. I met some really great people who are just as passionate about their job as many of us are. We all (ya'ah, as they say in Atlanta, GA) need to remember that the chief at the top of the mountain usually takes all of the arrows. Just ask my counterparts at AutoNation, Asbury, and Sonic. I bet they would agree.

As far as the Kool-Aid comment.... If Kool-Aid equals Vodka and Red Bull...than yes Joe, I was drinking the Kool-Aid!

David, thanks for your thoughts on the annual conference in Vegas -- it was a great time and as a rep for ATC I'm encouraged by the changes and the validation that the approach to building relationships and servicing our customers is the right direction. This happens to be an approach and way of doing business that many of us were already in tune with but the fact that the company is alligning their objectives to support this move.

On another note -- the presentation you did was very interesting -- you've given us some steps and ideas to bring to our dealers that when the time is right -- and once they can master the basic levels of merchandising -- we'll be able to consult on that next level of digital marketing that can help advance their objectives online. Thanks for your contribution and I love you what you guys are doing at MileOne.

Alex, it's good to see a touch of positive feedback from you. Many of us appreciate the work you do but it's often weighted with a negative spin that may or may not be rational or true -- especially since guys like me are on the front lines and know that the comments are off base (at least in my neck of the woods) so these little notes of optimism from you are great.

We need to see more objective views on the various issues that dealers are facing with respect to internet and 3rd party sites and although I enjoy most of the content on this blog -- it seems to have become a forum for bashing vendors.

Every company has areas to improve and grow in -- I guarantee I can find a handful of customers that were not happy with your dealership for one reason or another. Does that mean we should bash your dealership and create a thread dedicated to reduce your value? No - I don't think that would be the best way to convey constructive criticism.

If Autotrader is just paying things lip service, then I'll be right back to what I've been saying for the past 5 years. There was actually a time when I liked ATC.

SJBconsult - If you were in my marketplace, as a customer of ours, and we treated you unfairly you'd go somewhere else right? That's all the protest you would need to make - right? If I continued to call you and show up at your front door unannounced every couple of weeks what would you do to get rid of me? What if you even tried my services multiple times after we split ways years ago but still found the whole thing to be the same old dog and pony show? You'd leave again, and smack yourself for giving me another shot because you knew better. But I keep coming back - I keep calling, emailing, sneaking behind your back to talk to other people in your family, and still just dropping by unannounced.

So I ask again - how would you get rid of me? Call the cops? Get a restraining order? Maybe you're a forgiving person and would like to lend some criticism to help me see the follies of my ways. Maybe you have been telling exactly what I need to do to earn your business back every time I contact you. Maybe you know a day will come where I will get my act together in a way that makes you happy again. Maybe you're hoping one of your respected colleagues will come back from a trip with my company excited to hear all those things you've wanted to see from me are being committed to. Now you're just going to wait to see if they really happen.

Hopefully, once you've publicly come out to say something positive about my company someone from my organization doesn't come out to take a short stab at you.

If you think Dealer Refresh has only become a place where vendors are bashed, have you ever wondered why one in particular takes the vast majority of it? Might be a reason for that...

Hey, guys! I am trying to run a love fest here. This is why I don't come out from under my rock that often. Can I offer the two of you some Kool-Aid?

Can't we all just get along??? LOL!!! God I love passion!!!!

Thanks Alex,

My intentions were to engage you on a positive note and to not discourage the positive message in this post. I think I failed in that attempt

Anyway, I appreciate your input and will work harder within my circle of control to change a perception that I believe reflects a time when we were getting our act together at ATC.

I ask my dealers to hold me to the same level of accountability that they do for the other partner vendors. When we are on a level playing field -- it is clear to my dealers and myself that we are providing a great service.

I spend countless hours with my dealers on a weakly basis, creating specials, helping with pictures and other merchandising, reaching beyond what another vendor would do to earn their respect and to keep their business. It's paying off and it feels great and I'm absolutely excited to work with ATC given the effectiveness of our service. We're putting our dealers in front of targeted audience (whom are proactively looking for a vehicle in your market) and doing it at a fraction of the cost of what they are spending on Traditional Media. This is the bottom line for our DP's or GM's.

David I understand what you're saying and it is a positive message and often those who fail or fall short usually follow with an automatic build-in excuse list. NEWS FLASH, The auto industry is tough, it's been tough from the beginning and will be tough the rest of our lives. Life is certainly easier, for those of us who work in this industry, if we can continue to point to our vendors as the reason for our failures. This is the first and most likely the last post to this site for me; I've been coming here about twice a month for the last year plus. The absolute best thing about it is that every time I log on and read all the anti-atc postings, my faith is renewed. So I want to thank all of you built-in excuse makers. I hope you continue to blame at.com for all of your failure. Continue to discount to sell your cars. Continue to find more important things to do than spend time with your autotrader or cars.com reps; i recommend blowing up more balloons because we all know that will sell us more cars...HEY! if that doesn't work try painting the windows of the dealership, or maybe, just maybe a nice GORILLA blowup out front; all can't miss options. My point, if not obvious enough, if you continue to blame anyone for anything you have control of,....

hahaha... ya gotta love those "I ain't comein' back here no more" posts.

I see:
-Sellers defending value
-Ad Buyers upset about ROI

This is exactly how dealers feel about the Yellow Pages and NewsPrint. If you look into the DR archives, you'll see a anti-Yellow Pages rant in there.

BUT, I'll say something that no other "ad buyer" will admit here.

We've abandonded YellPages and NewsPrint. We can't abandon the AT platform. So what's the bitch? You can summarize the DR rant in one sentence "We buyers are upset about the 600% increase in 5 years."

Its so simple, we're locked in a love-hate stalemate.

Joe

Joe, thanks for your thoughts and for your honest opinions. Here is something you wont from other vendors -- please give us the opportunity to make things right with respect to untimely rate increases and other mistakes of the past.

In fact, we as the reps stepped up and fought for No rate increases until 2010 (and no that wont mean a double increase in 2010) and our company felt that was a great step toward the healing process. We understand the mistakes and we're taking steps to rectify it.

Here's some food for thought -- until this year every advertising medium has had an annual process of increasing rates and it's not unique to ATC. It's the way advertising works but the question is [what are we getting for the increase?]

ATC (and internet in general) is the only media that can confidently say that we've increased our reach and exposure by double digits year after year and that value is a win for our dealers.

Meanwhile other media were still asking for more money without the justified increase in exposure and that's bad business. In fact, everyone else was showing a decrease in those ever important metrics that determine value/rates in the advertising world.

I have a dealer that really gives me a hard time when comparing us with other media -- I asked him to invite all his advertising reps to a meeting and line us up -- and then make each of us give #'s on exposure and basically justify increases in spend and any other value points that we felt were important.

I'm not saying that ATC is the end all -- but internet in general (CARS.com and other 3rd party sites) were coming out on top of that meeting.

The result, the dealer was spending somewhere around 75% of his budget with (high cost, mass reach, untargeted traditional media)even in the face of current industry facts that show that somewhere north of 75% of consumers either begin their search online or stop their at one point of their sourcing process! It was very difficult pill to swallow but for him to continue to ignore the disparity in spend between the traditional vs. digital (where the consumers were really fishing) would have been irresponsible of him as the DP.

It was never a matter of asking dealers for more money -- but more so to ask them for a fair share of their current spend based on performance (reallocation)...

Here is how traditonal media gets their rate increase..."Mr. Dealer but I have value added products that go with this awesome drive time spot I am charging you out the A$$ for...but WAIT! If I really like you I will park an obscene van with a huge sign and oh hold on.....our 2PM personality FOR FREE!!!!" And one last thing...MR. Dealer, for a low low price I will give you 500 15 sec spots (did I forget to mention it's between 1AM-5AM) so your $800 30 second drive time spot is worth it! Sorry did I just turn your Franchise into a BHPH dealer? The "audience" is so great at that time. TRUST ME they do this to dealers all of the time. Value Add what???? Online..dealer websites...SEM/SEO/Cars, Autotrader...anything online is better than that. Your lot traffic will respond with what you put into that laptop thing. I always notice that no one really knows how to respond to traditional media posts. IM's learn this so you can have that money to spend where it sells more cars putting $$$$ in your pocket!!!

Well written and insightful...thank you for taking the time to participate in the conference and provide a review!

AutoTrader.com is just GREAT!!!!LOL. While they were having a good ole' time in Vegas, people were getting canned everywhere else with Cox AutoTrader. Greed comes back to haunt companies. You watch and see!!!

Kat,

We are in the worst economy that anyone of our generation has ever seen -- and it sucks to see anyone lose their job at any time but we need to keep things in perspective.

First, Cox companies are all seperate entities and Autotrader.com and Cox Autotrader are not managed from the same balance sheet.

Second, every company on the planet has had to look at their business and scale accordingly.

Third, ATC (not cox autotrader in which you worked apparently) is one of the few companies that didn't cut sales people -- and in fact we brought on some of the cox autotrader people)

Finally, you said "While they were having a good ole’ time in Vegas, people were getting canned everywhere else with Cox AutoTrader. Greed comes back to haunt companies."

That's almost like saying, team -- since your local newspaper closed down we decided to not reward your hard work this year. (Remember, you company is owned by the same but not managed by the same)

Also, It's cheaper to go to Vegas during this time of year then it is to go to Buffalo NY (kidding) but seriously. We worked hard in 2008 like everyone else and had another year of growth while most companies landed in the negatives. Why shouldn't they reward the sales people per the tradition. I bet if they didn't you'd see a different thread on here that says the same message (ATC is horrible, blah, blah, blah)

Don't direct your anger at the wrong people.

In fact, channel your anger and look at your situation as an opportunity to start fresh somewhere else.

Honestly, I feel your pain like everyone else in this economy but if you work hard and stay focussed you will thrive in another role somewhere else.

Best of luck!!!

Alex and I agree on a lot when it comes to Autotrader. The shortcomings of the product were compounded by a sales and support staff that left a lot to be desired from a policy and procedure standpoint. If things are changing from an attitude standpoint and rates are dropping, then I would consider them again. However, I have a used car ad plan that is producing results so why should I add them back and all the expense that comes with it. I'm happy for ATC and their customers that things are changing. Thats good business. I just think the whole medium is on shaky ground. If local or regional dealer associations pool their resources, they could come up with an alternative to the cars.com and AT's of the world, advertise the heck out of it and cut out the middle men (and they might even save some money in the end).

For the record, I didn't mean to set this off on a negative chain so my apologies to David Metter if it appeared that way. Thanks again for sharing your insight. DR is a great place to exchange news, ideas and provide feedback. Thanks again to Jeff et al for keeping it going.

Lets go sell some cars and get this thing going again!

SJBconsult,
I must say your response is nothing but a complete contradiction. Here is my response to your reply:
We are in the worst economy that anyone of our generation has ever seen — and it sucks to see anyone lose their job at any time but we need to keep things in perspective.
***Really is our economy the worst our generation has have ever seen? I was completely unaware; no wonder why our dealers are doing so terrible. This is good info to share with them then.LOL!

First, Cox companies are all separate entities and Autotrader.com and Cox Autotrader are not managed from the same balance sheet.
***Your right on that one, but when ATC needed help in Blitzing under Performing Markets and decided to publish a reverse ATC Magazine, I do believe it was the CAT employees that had to come over and work hand-in-hand in doing so.
Also I do believe the Private Party Segment always worked with ATC in building your private party content on your website. So we did work a lot closer than what you are leading everyone to believe.

Second, every company on the planet has had to look at their business and scale accordingly.
***Scale is right. Keep the performers and get rid of the under performers. Not get rid of the entire company....unless that was the plan from the very beginning.

Third, ATC (not Cox autotrader in which you worked apparently) is one of the few companies that didn’t cut sales people — and in fact we brought on some of the Cox autotrader people)
*** ATC did bring over CAT employees. You now get our president, who came from there in the first place, or vice president and the top sales reps from each office. The only thing wrong with that is, everybody in their right mind knows the plan for the sales reps. Use them to capture what revenue they can from the magazine and then dispose of them or give them the option to transfer to another city so they can say they tried to keep everyone. Those are the people I really feel sorry for. They didn't get the opportunity to get the "Generous Severance Payout" and probably will never see such a thing.

That’s almost like saying, team — since your local newspaper closed down we decided to not reward your hard work this year. (Remember, you company is owned by the same but not managed by the same)
*** I agree that hard work should not go un-noticed but that is in a perfect world.... and obviously we are not in one. A lot of people lost their jobs and because of that anyone under the Cox Enterprise umbrella probably should show some type of empathy to those thousands that lost their jobs and refrain from putting comments about Vegas Trips on the Internet. Take your team out to eat, tell them thank you and save your money. After all our economy is the worst our generation has ever seen.

Also, it’s cheaper to go to Vegas during this time of year then it is to go to Buffalo NY (kidding) but seriously. We worked hard in 2008 like everyone else and had another year of growth while most companies landed in the negatives. Why shouldn’t they reward the sales people per the tradition? I bet if they didn’t you’d see a different thread on here that says the same message (ATC is horrible, blah, blah, blah)
***My region was a performing region and it didn't matter how hard we worked at the end of the day we still lost our jobs. It wasn't shutting down offices that were underperforming it was shutting down the whole CAT organization. And don't tell me about Tradition, the Magazine is what made your name so valuable. Without that, you would have been nothing.
And taking pride in the fact Vegas was cheaper than Buffalo NY; people have just lost jobs....low class and now is not the time for kidding remarks.

Don’t direct your anger at the wrong people.
*** My anger is not towards the people who still have jobs, god bless them and I truly hope they get to keep them. My anger goes out to those flaunting Vegas trips. Once again we are owned by the same company Cox Enterprise. Show empathy towards not just the people who are without jobs, but also to their family's they are trying to support. After all, I have to go back once again to your comment "We are in the worst economy that anyone of our generation has ever seen"

In fact, channel your anger and look at your situation as an opportunity to start fresh somewhere else.
***Seriously, you have a job. So do you really know what it is like for the millions who are competing against each other in the "worst economy that anyone of our generation has ever seen"? I think not. Opportunity’s...LOL!

Honestly, I feel your pain like everyone else in this economy but if you work hard and stay focused you will thrive in another role somewhere else.
***Ok, so let's really be honest. You feel my pain? No you don't, you’re not the one trying to find a job (sorry, I gotta go there again) "in the worst economy that anyone of our generation has ever seen". So just stop, you said enough.

KAT

My apologies to David if my comment set off a chain of negative comments. I am glad to hear that things are changing at AT. Thats just good business. They have a lot to make up for after years of bad policies and procedures when it came to their relationship with their dealers. If things are really happening as they were presented to David then I would look at AT again. However, my used car ad plan seems to be working for me so why go to the added expense of signing up with Autotrader. This whole medium will have problems if local and regional dealer associations get their act together to form websites similar to AT and Cars.com. They can advertise they heck out of them in their local markets and maybe even save a little money. I agree with Alex in many respects on this and other issues. The landscape is changing.

Just curious maybe I have missed this somewhere
but how strong is the infrastructure at ATC. Seems like a lot of data being pushed these days. What kind of upgrades have they made in this area?

Wow, there is a lot of energy out there. I am a pulilsher of a regional magazine that is a direct competitor to AutoTrader. So the new is good for us, but former peers and friends are in a bad place. Ask most of us, it is rough and hard out there right now.

Print is certainly less important than 10 years ago. Yet, direct mail, targeted advertisng, and many other advertising programs that rely on printed materials are popular and growing. All dealers need to be online. No doubt about. But is the cost per sale climbing out of reach?

There is no way a dealer can dominate a site provided by a third party internet provider. They can pop up earlier, add colors, add logos, and make the posting appear nicer. But that dealer can dominate printed materials and can get very impressive returns for adverting investments made in print.

Trader print was a strong competitor and got very impressive results if used properly. What are deaers going to do to replace those units that were sold because of print?

Print lives and is very healthy if the material is targeted and put into the hands of people who have an interest in the message. That requires very good distribution and the proper print runs. Ask for proof and verify what agencies or publlishers claim as print runs, mailings, and results. It is EASIER than you may think.

AutoTrader.COM cuts boths ways, it is the largest, but how do you get responses when so many dealers are there?

You don't. It's the luck of the draw. Buy all the bells and whistles they want to sell you and you may do better than others. Spotlight the heck out of your cars and you might get a few more requests. The consumer is going to surf and it doesn't matter if you spotlight it or put naked pics on it. They look at make, model, miles and price and they will surf all the ones they are looking for. If you SEO/SEM your inventory off your own site, you don't have pay ANYBODY huge sums of money for a crap shoot. Would you rather spend $5K plus a month on some listing site or $5K a month on your own site(s) etc....with better results?

Crazy why any dealer would want to do that anymore, CRAZY!

Nice to see all these smart people on here that have the magic formula on selling more cars! Boy, if you could bottle it, you'd be richer than Bill Gates. Seriously, I've been in automotive advertising for 23 years. I sold newspaper during the glory '80's. Dealer's thought it was way expensive, told us "we were the only game in town" (No, there was TV and Radio and Magazines and Direct Mail, etc. they could choose from). There were tons of dealers in there--everyone of them. No one dealer could dominate. But guess what....it sold cars for them and was easy to do. My point is. Newspapers don't work now, the internet works better (not just ATC, Cars.com, but all of it). Dealer's--shift your old tired, non-working media budget (yes it includes blow up Gorillas)to more online focus. Don't spend "more" but shift it. Also, doing it right takes work....make your lazy salespeople and/or internet manager (not all dealerships--don't kill me)use the tools available to bring more attention to your inventory! Many, Many, Many dealers are being very, very, very successful with more of an internet focus even in today's crappy economy. (I'll give you some references if you want). OBTW, I got out of "traditional media" a few years ago, because I knew where the train was headed. I'm now helping my dealers sell more cars on the internet. Lastly, Thanks David! You "Get It"

David,

Quick story: A guy owns a restaurant and has been buying plastic forks for 10 years from the same guy for a penny a piece. He liked the fork rep and thought for sure he was his partner in success not just a vendor. Along comes a new vendor who offers the same fork for half a penny. He says he will get back to him on buying forks. The owner calls his normal fork vendor to tell him the story and ask about the price. His partner/vendor says he could do it for the same price too. The owner then decides that he has been getting raked by this guy for 10 years...why would he give him any more business... and promptly fires his vendor and hires the new guy. Do you see enough similarities in this story as compared to the pandering you received at this conference? How many times will they "fix things"? "Straighten out the pricing, etc". "Really give you exclusivity now..." Companies should not be penalized for trying to change and do better, but there are HUNDREDS of dealers (and stories) whose memory must be longer than yours. Eventually one must decide what this company is all about. After all of these years of arrogance and manipulating price and arrogance, oh I said that, I have voted with my checkbook and invested heavily in microsites and additional online resources to help sell cars, but those resources will not include AutoTrader. I have overspent on forks long enough. Best of luck with your business and vendors.

Bravo Scott, someone had to say it. I love how ATC is the "victim" all of the sudden. I wonder if any of the ATC folks realize the company will be sold within the year? The purple mustaches from all that kool aid must effect memory. They can't put the Genie back in the bottle.

Quick comment about "over pricing". That's what customers feel when they buy the minute a new model comes out and later it's discounted. Not a good mindset. Did they get screwed in some way that they where over priced? Of course not because that is what the market is at the time.

Second, I bought my first mounted car cell phone for $2,500 and if I or others at time didn't help make that company profitable to continue on would they have been able to grow and better their product and service?

It's all relative in the business development cycle. If a product doesn't work in your business model then it is what it is and something else does.

If AT and Cars did not exist what would be the option? "Ebaying" the cars which puts it up for grabs on what you will sell a vehicle for.

This is all new and keep it in perspective. Do you some realize that we can rememebr NO internet, computer and what the heck is e-mail?

All the best-Pete

I got the latest today. I was tag teamed by the Automart.com Rep and the AT rep. I can't believe I was told that they were required to tell me about their new Dominater package because some dealer near us will buy it and they didn't want me upset when the competion's ad showed up on top of my "partner placement". Without offering it to me first for a mere $3000 per make per month. I can't believe that AT can continually sell a higher placement package without eventually hitting a ceiling.

Just a dealer bidding against the cloud.

Bill, you were just "blitzed" but their not calling it that anymore, LOL!

"A mere $3,000 a month". I didn't know that it is getting to that point. What are they the mob?
Bad move on AT's part if they are trying to send in relatively "green peas", by way less the number of negotiating experience in to close than most Closer's/Managers/Owners in the business. Are they forgetting who needs who more. Dealers sell cars and they sell what "hyped-air"? Who's the customer and who &^% should be kissin who's here for business...nice selling model, trying to scare the fearless. Aghh! what are these ad people thinking? The direct mail people are considering coming out of retirement if that is how your going to try to sell your virtual service. Right...In two years mainstream media will get it figured out and a person from ABC online will be sending you your ad bill. I forgot they got "anal-ytics" as a secret weapon-lol

Really convenient. Fly me to Vegas, give me the VIP Pimp show and I will say the vendor is the best thing since color television.

Give me AutoTraders number. Bellagio, strip clubs, Patron, and I am their biggest fan!

Come on...since when does explaining the proper changes that a vendor is making become a VIP Pimp show? I have met David more than once and he is great at what he does. He follows all of the right trends and is a big component to the success of MileOne. Just because someone had been to a company dinner and had a great time does not mean that they sell their soul and true feelings about them. I think when you get to know a company and you know the right people and you see that this company is trying to make things right it is only fair acknowledge it. There are companies that I am not a huge fan of even though I respect them. The companies that I am not a fan of can wine and dine me all day and night long. However, if I think they have a crappy service my thought will be the same, I will just never stop respecting people for trying to make things better and improve. It show positive change and a will to improve. At the end of the day, dealers need vendors and vendors need dealers as both work together to be as profitable as possible.

Common now with the pimping comment. Discourse is great but discourteous is not. If your saying that you are skeptical or still not agreeing that's great. Heck make some fun but mocking? I don't think that every topic is spot on for me personally and just pass on engaging it but look at the purpose of this site. Hope you where having a bad day and no worries. The best to all and it will get better hopefully soon. PS Anybody going to be at the Chicago Auto Show? Maybe stop by and say hello-Pete

Scott Falcone and Brian DiPerna,

Quick story: I will put my reputation, ethics,success, and experience up against just about anyone in the business at any time. Neither of you know me so I would request that you not pass judgment on my character. Your pandering statement was insulting. My comments were from the heart. Maybe you should be less jaded and smile every once in a while. Sounds like someone needs a hug.....and this is why I shouldn't do guest posts...

David, you can't do that on this blog. Some people still need professional training Thanks for the comments.

Scott--not all forks are created equal. A Lexus will get you from point A to point B just like a Kia--but you get what you pay for. Why buy advertising on TV station C when you can get just as much for 1/2 the cost at station D? Because station C offers more people, coverage, etc. than station D.....hope your new plastic forks don't break in your customer's hands when they take the first stab.

Alan-Scott gives all of his customer's the EXACT SAME DEAL...LOL!!!! First dealer in the world...Thanks Scott! Are you a Saturn store????

Geeze boys... I had to take a moment to place a comment on here. Since I have been hiding behind the scenes for a bit.

As we all know AT is a heated discussion as prior posts on Dealerrefresh. Price increases and much more. Yes I was also in the midst of hammering a few AT reps on the head that were fully defending the AT blitz team etc.

David - future post would be greatly appreciated here on Dealerrefresh. Many of us regardless if we are a Dealer, Vendor, competition etc. are ears are open to learning more or should I say SHARPEN our SKILLS!!

Giving them the chance to see of their improvements are what AT says they are, only time will tell.

What it comes down to is we find ourselves blaming others for just that reason. Swallowing a hard pill due to price increases really is a drag and looking back at the ROI on the sale we made from AT is what we need to do.

Do you use AT to the fullest advantage you have?

Yes I sell websites, I am not going to sell a website if you are not going to use the tools I sell you. SPECIALS, UPCOMING SALES, UPLOADING VIDEOS and so on.

To get a tool to work for you, you need to work with all the tools that are provided to you.

I have used AT in the past, and sold a lot from AT. I had to keep on top of it daily to ensure the consumer is going to see what I have and details on that vehicle.

Again lets give them a chance to see what they have in store as David taken his time to place this post on here and seems confident this change is in the best interest of the dealer themselves.

Cheers to the Kool-Aid!

David,

A few do not speak for all and through sporadic disorder good eventually comes from it. Hope and look forward to hearing more valued information, updates and suggestions.

Regards,
Pete

David,

Please keep doing guest posts they are interesting and I want you to know that I am a big fan. Keep up the good work.

Everyone,

As competitive as we maybe sometimes be with another we need to remember that we are in this together as one big team. We are the people that move this industry and control it with our experiences, references, and comments. I came to this conclusion yesterday when I sat in a room with vendors and dealers at NADA and watched two former president's speak. I saw how united we were and how we were like a family.

Ok. So I've decided to put my two cents in here. I've been lurking around here too, and have been reading a lot of the same stuff on a bunch of different message boards. The conversations aren't that different from what I am hearing from former co-workers.
I used to work for Trader myself. I started as an inside sales rep for TraderOnline for the old Trader Publishing. I went to work for Auto Trader Magazines as an outside sales rep, went to work then for the Alpha Dog of them all, AutoTrader.com as an outside sales rep, and then jumped divisions into a regional sales training position for AutoExtra.com.
I, like many others out there, have had my share of angry moments at our (former) company. But if I step back for a minute, and try to be objective, I have to say, it wasn’t all bad. During my time with the Cox organization(s), I was able to very quickly move from inside sales to outside sales to working for the flagship to being a regional sales specialist. All in about 4-5 years. What other company offers you the opportunity for growth like that? So for that, I am and will always be grateful.

HOWEVER. I too fell victim to layoffs this time last year from my regional position. So I know the pain of what those who were recently let go, are going through. I have to step back for a minute and say something about the demise of our company, Cox Auto Trader/Auto Mart. As a team, we are responsible for where it ended up. And don’t get angry guys, this is just my opinion, and my experience.
I hear a lot of reps complain, about the fact that upper management didn’t care about what was going on, and what changes were being made. Well for someone who actually made it into a management position, and got to actually talk one-on-one with district managers and regional managers, I can say they were doing what they had to do, and were doing the best they could.
AutoExtra.com had the potential to be a great site. They even brought over Joe George, one of the originators on the AutoTrader.com team, to oversee it. I remember having a conversation with him at a team meeting, about how we were in a truly good place at the right time—at a very similar place he once saw AutoTrader.com at. We had a fighting chance, it was just going to take time.
The reps however, (and this goes for AutoMart as well, as I heard about problems with rate integrity, dealer maintenance, and lack of sales enthusiasm from my AutoMart.com counterparts), failed to effectively position, sell, and service their internet products. They treated it simply as an add-on, or would HIDE it, and its cost, in the weekly invoice. I myself tried to share all of the practices I had learned with AutoTrader.com, with my reps, and very few took it to heart. They couldn’t see past the print, instead of looking at the total-market solution of print and internet, that would bring their dealers good leads. They tried to blame the site, the team in Norfolk—everyone but themselves for why it failed. Search engine marketing was our only main form of advertising? Well if the inventory isn’t there it’s not going to show up in searches! If the dealers aren’t there, the site won’t work! CAT and CAM gave reps a way to offset the costs of the print, and if they had done a better job, ACROSS THE COUNTRY, the division wouldn’t have fallen. Internet revenues with smaller overheads could have balanced out the print revenues with the higher overheads. Now yes, some reps had every dealer on an internet package, but if in one office, one city, your entire team isn’t on board, it just won’t work. And if nationally, you don’t build it, it won’t work.
I understand everyone feels hurt, angry, betrayed, lost. I was there too. And some days, I still find myself wandering back asking “what if?” But what’s done, is done. It’s time to take that anger, frustration, and sadness, and refocus all that energy. It’s time to move on. Believe me, I’ve been there.
THAT’S NOT TO SAY, AutoTrader.com didn’t have its shortcoming’s either.
I came on board in June 2006 as an Advertising Consultant, and while I was excited, and happy to be there, the honeymoon would soon come to an end. I took over a territory that had been DEMOLISHED with regards to ATC’s reputation.
Previous to me coming on board, 2 reps in that area and a sales manager, were all let go due to VERY shady practices. They had been giving dealers “free” product, such as upgrades to featured plus, or spotlight power packs, and then charging them later. “Don’t worry, they’ll thank me!” When the dealers refused to pay because they didn’t ask for the product, they were put into collections, or paid the balance to not ruin their own credit, and then cancelled ATC. Then of course, there was also the practice of selling, putting them live, and then never going back in the dealership again. Dealers LOVE that.
Now you all out there know dealers talk to each other. You can imagine how big of a fight it was then, for me to come on board, and try to work against such horrible experiences. And ATC management, WAS aware. However, they didn’t grant me any leniency. Yep, I made sales, but when times got rough because of the many uphill battles I was fighting, they were VERY quick to put you on a performance plan. Managers, as great as they were (and I REALLY DID respect my first DM at AutoTrader.com), couldn’t see past their own ambition to move up the ranks. I had a new manager come on and try to have a “come to Jesus” meeting with me, yet he had NEVER been out in the field with me, and didn’t even know my abilities as a sales rep. So, I knew it was time to move on, and was given the opportunity to move up. (This is part of why you, as dealers, saw such high rep turnover in your dealerships from ATC…their AMBITION, that sometimes border-lined on GREED…actually hurt them).
I’ve met Chip Perry. He is a great guy, and a very powerful, motivational speaker. So I believe when he says they are shifting focus this year to becoming more service oriented. And I believe it will be what’s good for ATC. And I believe in the power of AutoTrader.com.
Sorry I’ve rambled, my Red Bull hasn’t kicked in yet…
David, great post, and as someone who used to work with Mile One dealerships, you definitely have my respect and appreciation for what you do.

One more thing… I hate to put it this way, but ATC IS a necessary evil for dealers everywhere. It’s not their fault, they just built something that works. No, really. When they say “WHAT WE DO WORKS” they have the numbers and research to back it up. Every industry has a leader, they are it. And Cars.com is right there with them, neck and neck.
Do you want to sell cars? Do you want to make sure you do it as cheaply as possible? Do you want to make sure that EVERY dollar is TARGETED, and that there are NO wasted ad dollars? In this economy, you can’t afford to waste money.
The sole purpose of sites like AutoTrader.com and Cars.com is to bring car buyers and sellers together. Period. The same is NOT true for radio, TV, newspaper, or direct mail. They are “reach-preachers.” But if a TV or radio station reached 1,000,000 people, only a small percentage of people are looking to buy a car. You just wasted A LOT of money on people NOT in the market to buy. In this economy, are you looking to reach those who are looking to buy today, or those who are looking to buy 3 months from now (which isn’t going to help keep you in business into next month)?
Yes, I know you like the branding, and seeing your face on TV Mr. Dealer, and your company name. But it’s not about you, it’s about the consumer. Trust me. Leave the car selling to you, leave the advertising to us. Image ads don’t sell cars. Product ads do. That’s advertising 101.
AutoTrader.com’s top package is probably around $5,000-$6000 for a Tier-1 partnership at this point, for like, Ford or Chevy. I know TV schedules, and radio schedules, that cost A LOT more weekly.
Monthly, the totals are shocking (and I don’t care if they give you bonus spots, if you look at something like a TapScan report, you’ll see that NO ONE is listening on the overnight or weekend day-parts). Ask your broadcast reps for an Arbitron or Nielsen report, that reflects the RETAIL SPENDING POWER of their station. You’d be surprised how many actually intend to spend money on a new or used car this year. This information IS available, no matter what they tell you. You’ll be shocked to see what your true reach is, and how it actually affects your ROI.
With regards to newspaper and other print products, yes, they are places where people DO go to look for cars, but not a lot of people. Yet I’ve seen what some of you spend on the newspaper! I’m SHOCKED! Consumers want as much information on the car (photos, COMPLETE descriptions) and the seller as they can possibly get before making a decision, and the Internet gives you more of that than any other place, with little to no effort on the part of the consumer. Just point and click, from the comfort of your own home. The newspaper does not. TV does not. Radio does not. The product value/effectiveness doesn’t justify the spend.

It’s time to get with the program.

Bill--
What's the Dominator package? Is it that big orange ad at the top of the page? With the banner in the middle of the page, and the ad that pops up before the search results?
And if so, you say it's $3,000 a month?
This must be similar to the Alpha dealer package they were working on before... And now it's just an add on?

One more thing… I hate to put it this way, but ATC IS a necessary evil for dealers everywhere. It’s not their fault, they just built something that works. No, really. When they say “WHAT WE DO WORKS” they have the numbers and research to back it up. Every industry has a leader, they are it. And Cars.com is right there with them, neck and neck.
Do you want to sell cars? Do you want to make sure you do it as cheaply as possible? Do you want to make sure that EVERY dollar is TARGETED, and that there are NO wasted ad dollars? In this economy, you can’t afford to waste money.
The sole purpose of sites like AutoTrader.com and Cars.com is to bring car buyers and sellers together. Period. The same is NOT true for radio, TV, newspaper, or direct mail. They are “reach-preachers.” But if a TV or radio station reached 1,000,000 people, only a small percentage of people are looking to buy a car. You just wasted A LOT of money on people NOT in the market to buy. In this economy, are you looking to reach those who are looking to buy today, or those who are looking to buy 3 months from now (which isn’t going to help keep you in business into next month)?
Yes, I know you like the branding, and seeing your face on TV Mr. Dealer, and your company name. But it’s not about you, it’s about the consumer. Trust me. Leave the car selling to you, leave the advertising to us. Image ads don’t sell cars. Product ads do. That’s advertising 101.
AutoTrader.com’s top package is probably around $5,000-$6000 for a Tier-1 partnership at this point, for like, Ford or Chevy. I know TV schedules, and radio schedules, that cost A LOT more weekly.
Monthly, the totals are shocking (and I don’t care if they give you bonus spots, if you look at something like a TapScan report, you’ll see that NO ONE is listening on the overnight or weekend day-parts). Ask your broadcast reps for an Arbitron or Nielsen report, that reflects the RETAIL SPENDING POWER of their station. You’d be surprised how many actually intend to spend money on a new or used car this year. This information IS available, no matter what they tell you. You’ll be shocked to see what your true reach is, and how it actually affects your ROI.
With regards to newspaper and other print products, yes, they are places where people DO go to look for cars, but not a lot of people. Yet I’ve seen what some of you spend on the newspaper! I’m SHOCKED! Consumers want as much information on the car (photos, COMPLETE descriptions) and the seller as they can possibly get before making a decision, and the Internet gives you more of that than any other place, with little to no effort on the part of the consumer. Just point and click, from the comfort of your own home. The newspaper does not. TV does not. Radio does not. The product value/effectiveness doesn’t justify the spend.

Trader Hokie-
Yes, the same. Alpha Dominator.....
On top of the $6500 or so we pay as a partner an additional $3000/mo. That is for one Line. I'm a C/J/D store and all three for $6000/mo.

There has to be a point of diminishing returns for both AT and a dealer. I am glad I have a well performing website, well optimized and branded. Maybe I'll give them the heave ho.

Oh yea, the Kool-Aid flows freely and all are required to overindulge; same as with the HEAVY drinking, high fiving and back stab... er back slapping, self congratulatory narcissism. You're about to be bamboozled again. David Metter, you're a trip!
How much did you sell your soul for?

Joe--
Lay off of David Metter. He didn't drink too much of the Kool-Aid. If you're familiar at all with the Mile One Group, you'd know they are one of the largest and most successful dealer groups on the east coast, with or without AutoTrader.com. There was a time when the a large portion of his group wasn't even on ATC in my market, so it's not like he's in deep with them. He's giving his opinion in an open forum, and I think it's in bad taste for people to attack him, JUST BECAUSE he likes ATC and you don't. If dealers could get off their high horse, embrace the Internet, and realize ATC is worth the spend, there wouldn't be an issue here. I've seen dealers spend SO much more on newspaper, radio and TV it's HORRIBLE. With no ROI. And for those who used to work for ATC and are attacking them? Well, yes, they had steep goals, sometimes almost unattainable, but you're in SALES. If you can't hack it, get out. If they put you out, you failed to do what they asked you to do. Plain and simple. ATC is not the big bad wolf. And no, I don't even work for a Trader related company anymore. I just kept the name A) because I've used it a lot before when I was working there, and B) because I'm proud of my time with the company, it helped accelerate me into the salesperson I am today.

Dealers...former employees... PLEASE, stop the name calling, the finger pointing, and the drama. Move on. AutoTrader.com--What they do DOES work.

Peace.

Soon, when it's too late, you'll see what I'm talking about. I'll let all of you find out for yourselves. For years, no one at the SEC wanted to listen to Harry Markopolis when he warned them about Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. David Metter was "encouraged" to post here.

Wow; as a new ATC Ad consultant; all this pent up venom really surprised me. I've been with ATC since June 08. Prior to that it was five years with the Big daily Newspaper selling auto dealers; where we raised rates 7% every year.I had at least three dealers spending close to $1 million per year with me. I could see and hear the changing advertising environment; where these dealers were all headed towards the internet. In fact; it was some of my larger dealers that suggested I should try and get a job with ATC; as they found it gave them the best bang for their buck. As a competitive vendor I thought that ATC and cars.com were ridiculously cheap; as my average account spent $40k per month with me at the newspaper.

Before that I sold the top Adults 25-54 radio station in Silicon Valley to auto dealers. That too wasn't perfect; as often my dealers would get several of their prime time spots bumped off the air for higher rate spots; even though the dealer had an annual contract.
The average spend here was $15,000 per month.

I think the pricing of ATC or any rate increases are not really the issue. The issue is that you weren't getting enough service for your investment. I can assure you that ATC is working to correct that. All the sales people now receive about 50% of their commisions based on service metrics. If you haven't done the things to make the dealer successful; you don't get paid.

I would have to say; of all the media I have worked for ATC is the most customer focused and it shows in the dealer retention. So; please forgive us for any mistakes we've made. We are working to get better.

As a former AT employee, it is not surprising that you did not get the service you needed after the sale at AT. It was never the focus of management.

AT's business model is flawed and is not customer(dealer)centered. I realized this early in my stint there and it sickened me. Look at the Tiered Structure of the site. (Premium, Featured, Standard.) It is all about squeezing more out of the dealers. The "new car" suite is absolutely ludicrous.

Yes, print (especially) is slowly dying (look at the reported bankruptcies in the Newspaper industry). Okay. Just because you have spent $40K a month on print in the past doesn't mean you have to spend that much forever. Your margins are shrinking and so should your entire ad spend to compensate. The internet the current solution to this problem.

In early 2007, AT took away the bonus paid on the rep's book of business. Reps at AT are paid to sell new contracts. And penalized 100% if you cancel. This is why you really see your rep until cancellation time.

AT seems to be trying to change the course of their corporate culture, but this is a big ship to turn around.

Unfortunately, at AT there are a lot of people in place in management that have always used weekly quotas and fear tactics (getting "written up") to motivate the sales people. Many people under this kind of pressure from their company do not have the strength to think about anyone but themselves. You, the Dealer customers have been on the short end of that deal for a LONG time.

... meant to say above "This is why you really DON'T see your AT rep until cancellation time"...

As to the selling of positioning on ATC. All media does it. Radio and Television charge more for prime time spots. The newspaper gives the back or front page of the section to the biggest contract. Google and Yahoo charge more to be listed first. It's like Reale estate; it's all about location; location; location.

At the end of the day, there's a paradigm shift of the strategic staircase; to reverse wrongsiding the demographic by leveraging talents and display and inspire unyielding integrity thru living the values and a reduction in workforce.
Strategic intiatives focus on the next level drill-down to granularity, cascading down new information to staff and feeding it back to our stakeholders, who must come to the party or be left out. And also in addition, to aggregate bandwidth at the close of play by actioning ROI, since we'd better not let the grass grow too long on this one unless we've captured the low-hanging fruit. By capturing and employing 360-degree thinking we are still optimistic things will feed through the sales and delivery pipeline, in order to
pre-prepare and utilise forward planning and ensure the balance sheet by sprinkling our magic throughout the enterprise. We need a holistic, cradle-to-grave approach and, as product evangelists, loop back to our clients
and touch base, and exchange idea-showers offline. From the get-go, we must... we shall... let us now... go forward together in this space.

meant to say above “...in order to
pre-prepare IN ADVANCE and utilise forward planning… ”

Mike,

Your comparison to newspaper placement is exactly the problem with AT. AT is an internet site trying structure itself like a newspaper.

Dealers and Consumers are not served by the tiered structure and Pricing on the Autotrader site... only Autotrader.

AT has convinced dealers that there truly is value to being in the top spot. The problem is that ANYONE can be in the top spot. As time goes on, the value is even more degraded as more and more dealers in particular market take the bait.

In these lean times, dealers all over are starting to realize this and cutting their AT spend to the "Featured" position on the site. AT's lack of high trafficked partner sites is degrading their impact on the dealer's bottom line. The latest push on the New Car side is showing their desperation to retain income.

Your newspaper analogy is flawed. What you fail to realize, is that there is ONLY ONE front and back of a newspaper for advertising purposes. There is no such limitation on a Website.

I am not saying do not advertise on Autotrader. I am suggesting that the "Emperor" has a lot less Clothes on than he used to!

John B
The bottom line is why is there a Premium section? Because dealers asked for it. How many times do you think a dealer has said; or asked for his cars to be on top? If you were talking radio or television; it's how can I get my spots in prime time? Newspaper; how can I get the front cover; back cover; right hand page? The answer is always the same; you pay a premium for it. That's just business! The market drives the price.

As to the fact that there is a limited number of front or back pages in newspaper; limited prime time spots in electronic media; well ATC limits the number of Premium partners in any specific make. A GM partnership won't be sold to unlimited GM dealers in a market. There are only a few partnerships available per make in each DMA.

Like it or not, it's the age of the internet. And from the venom spilled here by a some crying sour grapes because the price they paid ten years ago to be on ATC was one tenth what they probably pay for ATC today. Yet the amount of unique buyers that visit ATC monthly are 10 times what they were back in the day.
ATC is the big dog on the block, with Cars.com at a distant second, yet a formidable foe. So if your angst is about the price of the top level, don't buy it. Thats why there is a middle level. After working in newspapers for years, the dealers would moan about the price of a full page ad and would buy a quarter page instead. Did they sell as many cars? Probably not, but they usually sold enough to easily pay for the ad.

So if you compare ATC to buying cheaper plastic spoons, maybe your customers can only afford cheaper spoons and its time to expand your customer base to include those that can afford the better quality spoon. If you dislike a company because of bad experiences in the past, you should be elated that an internet giant like ATC is reaching out to it's customer base and it's lost customers that have left them to try to right the ship. If your venom for ATC is so strong that you would never give them a second chance, you should at least consider Cars.com.
People were angry at the newspapers because there was always somebody else buying the full page ads that they couldn't afford, or wouldn't. Some people here have a hate for ATC because other dealers pay the price for a service that works for them and the sales generated by ATC justifies their cost.

Before you guys spend big money with ATC or Cars.com, make sure you are tracking the ACTUAL independent leads generated from these guys and DO NOT RELY on the reports that they send you with crap like web clicks, etc.

I saved my dealership $5000/mth because my salespeople were telling me we had sold 20 vehicles off of ATC that month, but my call tracking only registered 20 calls MTD -- off of a 5000 spend! That averaged to $250 per car lead??? Anyway, I cancelled right away, and have noticed no drop in my units sold through.

Mike,

Keep spewing that nonsense about "a limited number of Partnerships available in a DMA". You drank the Kool-aid.

A District Manager can (and will) approve any number of AT Partnerships in a given DMA. True, there are a set number of guidelines per make, but the District Manager does not need to follow them. Also, AT will zone out a DMA (by Zip Code) in some DMAs. This means that a dealer, although they are paying Premium, may not have all the zip codes in their own DMA. And don't get me started on the Conquest package that allows dealers in other DMAs to buy into your DMA!

The truth is that if the dealers stopped paying for the Premium space, they would still all be on the site. The ones that are still paying for Premium (foolishly) are competing against themselves when the other dealers in their make figure this out.

Save the money and you will do as well in the Featured section of AT. If you see worse results (I doubt it), AT will always take more money from you if you decide to go back to Premium listings.

Jim,

I liked your comments however Cars.com is not a "distant second" in reality. Here's why...

AT likes to use traffic sites like Alexa.com and Compete.com to compare themselves to Cars.com. These sites only count "organic searches" (the consumer typed in a specific internet site on their browser). It does not take into account Site Traffic as a result of Cars.com (and AT for that matter's) site Partnerships.

Cars.com Partnered to provide dealer inventories to Yahoo in December 2007. Since then, the site traffic has more than almost tripled. The growth is not just because of Yahoo, but Yahoo grew it significantly.

Do you ever wonder why you can not see your history data on AT's Dealer Center prior to January 1, 2008? (They must not want you to be able to compare what happened after they lost Yahoo to Cars.com.) What a crock!

John B...Let's see...Cars.com averaged 8 million unique visitors per month in 2007. Leap forward to 2009 and according to the latest reports by commscore. Cars.com is down over 2008. However, Cars.com is around 10 million uniques per month. Where does the 3X increase come in? ATC on the other hand, had 14 million unique visitors in Feb 2007. Feb 2009 ATC had 15.8 million unique visitors. All ATC did in Dec 2007 was trade yahoo for KBB.com. It looks brilliant now doesn't it? BTW...I won't mention any names, but ATC's head honcho was at a conference with Cars.com's head honcho a couple of months ago and you know what Cars.com's guy said? I quote "We are 5 years behind you guys"! In the internet world, 5 years is an eternity.

I forgot to mention...Most consnumers appraise their trade or research at KBB.com, Edmunds.com, or NADA.com before they go into the dealership. ATC controls the inventory for all 3 sites! Good luck!

Kool-aid,

Obviously, based on your comments you do not know how the Comscore data is generated. You are exactly the problem with AT -- you think you know everything and the dealers know nothing. Too bad.

You think the KBB trade for Yahoo was "brilliant"? I rest my case.

Oh, and by the way -- ATC doesn't "control" any inventory -- the dealers do.

You still didn't answer the question where you came up with 3x increase. Is that because you truthful?

Typo...I meant were not truthful?

FYI...Yahoo Autos only contributes an average of 800,000 uniques. Maybe a little more but not much.

Geoff,

I just want to make sure that I understood your comment correctly. You canceled AT because your CRM tool showed 20 phone calls even though your salespeople, the ones that engage your customers, credit the site with 20 sales per month? Did I misunderstand something here, or did you?
I have a few follow up questions about no loss of sales:
How long ago did you cancel? How many monthly visitors on your site while using AT, how many after? How about floor traffic? How about calls to your dealership that weren't routed through a tracking number? Has enough time passed in a 90-120 day buying cycle market to really know if AT was returning on the investment?

Point is that figuring cost per lead on phone calls only is the 1990's of web marketing. Both the big players and edmunds recently completed independent studies on consumer behavior that highlight a noticeable shift away from phone and email submission. Respectfully, if that is all you are looking at you need to hold your other advertising to the same standards. If you can't draw a straight line between the source and the sale cut away, goodbye newspaper, goodbye billboards, goodbye radio, goodbye charity events, goodbye demos, heck if you really suck at tracking your sales, goodbye website. Are you ready to sit back and really rely on your walk-in traffic?

The internet has ushered in a new era of consumer behavior. There will be less straight lines between your marketing efforts and a sale. You need to be prepared to intelligently consider the strongest influencers of your sales as part of a viable mix. I'm not writing a blank check for AT here, but I am saying that you can't patently throw out web transfers as junk reporting.

There has to be an introduction before there can be a consummation. Are you sure enough to wager all of your website sales that AT had "nothing" to do with getting those buyers to your site?

Koolaid,

Why is it that my AT rep is now saying that AT had 16 million uniques on the site in March 2009? Why does AT continue to allow Spiders and Bots to inflate their traffic numbers? Is this to continue to deceive the car dealers?

Give us a break. The Dealer Center of AT used to have a disclaimer about the Spiders and Bots. Now they just have the asterisk without the explanation.

The deception continues.... a lot like the traffic numbers on the dealer center that mysteriously went away when they no longer were the Yahoo Autos partner site.

You still don't get it. Cars.com, ATC, etc., are all held to the same reporting standards as determined by the IAB. Therefore cars.com and ATC report numbers based on the same type of activity. Do some educational research on the subject and get back to me.

Koolaid,

So traffic numbers from partner websites are never counted in total site traffic? Compete and Alexa are reporting organic searches. They do not combine traffic from organic searches and searches from partner sites to get the number of total searches.

You are so confused. Here is your educational research. Read this and if you still don't get it.... incredible.

I'm aware of that. That is why compete or alexa only show 5-6 million for ATC. When you add in all of the partner sites...you get 16 million.

SCRAPER: (skrey-per) Noun

A program designed to take site content without permission. It catalogs and indexes the World Wide Web without following an industry standard protocol. Seeks to disguise itself and ignore the ROBOT.TXT file for instructions. At ATC, scrapers are eliminated from site metrics when we are able to identify them. Just like Cars.com .

If you would like me to explain what spiders are and how they work...let me know.

Bottom line...ATC had 16 million unique visitors and Cars.com had 10 million. Great numbers for both sites and I hope you are on both. You keep masquerading as a dealer...if you were a dealer and you are this bitter...cancel ATC!

I'm still waiting for you to answer the question you keep dodging...Where did you come up with 3X the traffic?

How about we settle this once and for all... "Mr. Dealer... Yes, the economy is currently soft...ok, yes, it's bad. But unless you're going to close your doors tomorrow, you need to sell cars. And how are you going to do that? By reaching as many IN-MARKET car shoppers possible. Now of course, you can't advertise everywhere. The money just isn't there. You have a budget and you need to make every advertising dollar count. So where can you spend your money, that reaches the most car buyers possible? ON THE INTERNET. And when it comes to the Internet, there are TWO great websites that can reach the majority of car buyers--AutoTrader.com and Cars.com. AutoTrader partners with sites like Univision, MSN, KBB, NADA. Cars.com partners with Yahoo, Freebo, ConsumerGuide, and over 150 newspaper and TV outlets. We don't need to talk unique visitors on either site, who's the biggest or the baddest. These are the TWO front-running sites, with less than 25% overlap in unique visitors. If you only advertise on one, you're missing a large portion of the other site's audience. You could spend around $2000 for the Featured Plus product on ATC, around $2000 for the OAP on Cars.com, get an ROI from both that's OUTSTANDING, reach more in-market car buyers than any other combined media spend, and STILL pay less than what you're paying for ONE WEEK in the newspaper. Let's get reps together from both sides and create an INCREDIBLE campaign to help you move some metal."

I mean really guys, STOP THE BICKERING. I've worked for both Cox Enterprises and Classified Ventures. Both are great sites, both will work for the dealers, and you should spend more time fighting the wasted ad spend on TV and in the newspaper (and even on the radio of all places). Do you know in a C-Market like Charleston SC, one page, for one day in the newspaper, is like $1900--MORE if you ad color. A radio schedule in an A/B market like Norfolk VA, to reach a decent frequency, is AT LEAST $2500-$3000 a week or more. And TV? Forget it! The Internet is THE place to shop as a consumer to really know what you can get for your money. And you BOTH have the BEST sites for them. No one else even comes close. I bet if you actually worked TOGETHER against traditional media... You could get even more than just $2000 each per month. Stop talking traffic and start talking EXPOSURE and RESULTS.

By each side putting up a wall, and taking a competitive stance against the other site, you're actually demeaning your own product and your own reputation, in front of the dealer. Jeffrey Gitomer, one of the leading sales guru's of our time, practically uses the statement "people buy from people they trust" as his mantra. If you actually SUGGEST both sides work together in the best interest of the dealer...WOW...THAT will build trust. And then he'll actually COME TO YOU for ad decisions, and will be even willing to buy more if you can show him something is going to work.

Just my 2 cents...

Trader Hokie you will never get feedback from these guys regarding traditional media because they don't make decisions for that. They still have "internet budgets". The key is to find a website that owners blog and have that discussion. I still can't believe some of these dealers still have a separate budget for online when it is majority of their business. I always tell owners when you have an "internet department" you set your sales staff up to lie to you about sourcing. My favorite is when we hear about phone calls and emails. If they really knew about online, they would know majority of the traffic on sites like Autotrader and Cars don't do either. They just show up. Oh well, dealers always know more though. Maybe in 5 years they will figure this out.

What a conversation! If nothing else ATC brings out the passion from both sides. As a former CAT employee for almost 8 years I have heard the stories from both sides, the dealer and CAT. On a side note I'm trying to figure out the identity of Trader Hokie since I was the Desert DM for AutoExtra.com.

Back to the comments, the arguments over ATC and Cars are getting old and dated. Dealers, you need both of them no question. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. As for those that like to claim print is dead or dying, you really need to look at the whole picture. While newspapers are on the ropes targeted publications still do very well and under the current conditions can be very cost effective.

The Internet is no different than other advertising mediums in the basics which are target demo, reach, frequency and most important the message (call to action). Yes the Internet does give the benefit of more content for less money. But just as your used lot doesn't contain all one make or one model, your advertising mix should not be all one or two choices. As much I as love the Automotive Internet Business (now working on building another auto site in the Phoenix market), we love to throw stats around more than politicians love polling numbers. Are effective? Do we offer great ROI? Can we target better than other mediums? Yes to all. One caveat......ROI is subjective.

Can the Internet deliver buyers to the Internet Dept. of course. But what about the "soft" results that are always talked about. Clicks to the website? I can't tell you how many dealers I've dealt with in 3 states that tell me those are not legit. But when pressed they are spending a couple of thousand with Reach Local or some other SEM/SEO campaign and count the clicks. Why not with an automotive site? What about the walk in traffic? From the last ATC/Northwood Univ study, I believe it 54% of customers generated by online never email or call? As Sellmorecars just noted, these set up the "driveby" scenario on the sales floor to avoid the split. Been there, done that, not proud of it.

I've had more dealers tell me they always look at the results from any site I was with, take the hard leads and add 25% for the soft leads they couldn't track. They got it when it came to understanding what the internet and auto sites were about. Not lead providers, just plain advertising with better accountability to a degree.

Fight all you want. ATC is the big dog on the street. While I don't drink the "Kool-Aid", I hope the changes they are putting in place will be successful. They don't want to admit it but there is competition out there, even from the small regional and local sites like me. What dealers need to realize and it shows in the comments, they are in the newspaper syndrome with ATC and Cars to a certain level. I need to be there because my competition is there and they spend $200 million to advertise. Just as Trader Magazine was once the source for cars and has faded, the auto listing sites will do the same but will not go away. They will just be another source.

While the big guys fight it out for the listings win, us little guys will take the next step and use listings, .mobi, texting, Behavorial, video and traditional media to deliver the right message, at the right time to the shopper and buyer all from one source. To the former CAT people that will sound familiar.

There's room for all of us in the market. The current conditions will not last forever and the ones left standing will have a wide open field to compete on. Someone said 5 years behind is an enternity in the Internet. When you look at it, the auto listings and CPL models are already dated. One can only do so much to spruce up an old technology. ATC lost a great resource when it let CAT (which ATC was part of) fall. They lost the ability to go cross channel and reach every potential buyer. Someone earlier said that 78% (another one of those polling #'s) of people looking for cars use the Internet, what about the other 22% are they not worthy of seeing what is available? Are they not worth our time and attention? Are the 78% that go online really in the market at that time?

I’m all for the Internet and what it can do for the dealership. With that said I can also make the argument it should be low priced. Another subjective term. I firmly believe we on the Internet vendor side of the table tend to invent and introduce more products that offer little in value as far as functionality and ROI but sell the sizzle to get the revenue. Capitalism at it’s best and I’ve been guilty of it. But for the dealers out there, ask yourself, I spend all this money on location, location, location for the drive by traffic and eyeballs. Does it really give me the ROI? If you say yes, then why do you need to advertise? Paying more for Internet listings is the same thing, most of the traffic any of our sites generate are “drive by”. If I looked at the mix, could I reallocate some of those funds for other products that would enhance what I already have?

Good luck to ATC. Thanks for letting me ramble.

David, am curious; how is ATC holding up on the promises thry made at the meeting you attended in Jan '09? Are you still a raving fan? I open this question up to the floor.....

The simple answer to your question is yes. If you look at the numbers, our ROI on our $'s invested in Autotrader.com has never been better. Our account management is at its highest level in the history of our relationship and we just met with them to discuss some enhanced reporting.

So, I guess I am still drinking the kool aid. It's a lot easier to afford the kool aid when you are selling a bunch of used cars and growing market share.

Great setup Ia-Mc, if u have too waste ur time on boards like this tho ~ trying to prop up atc??

Send me ur resume, maybe i can do something for ya.

-Sayre

@Kool-Aid

Ummm... hate to tell ya whatcha already know but ain't tellin': a scraping project has been underway for a few years now at ATC; the scraping comes from within.