The Eureka! Link

Joe - Have you seen the new 2011 product from ATC? Really highlights a link back to the dealersite.

Yes - they are calling it BOB. Big Orange Button. It's going to be a nice addition to the AutoTrader.com VDP. Looking forward to having it implemented for my dealer accounts.

Ran out of space. Eureka link NEEDS a gateway page that displays an incentive created by the dealer, where shopper leaves contact info .

Win+win=ROI

Ran out of space. Eureka link NEEDS a gateway page that displays an incentive created by the dealer, where shopper leaves contact info .

Win+win=more ROI

Would auto dealers be willing to pay on a CPC type model in order to get the click through for that vehicle? Without something like that Autotrader, and the like, would be losing their lead information.

If there are too many unanswered questions people may need to look at a few different ways to resolve this too. Often times you'll see marketing information where dealers have an opportunity to answer some of the questions such as the vehicles comments. Granted you can't put in a lot of the stuff you like and stay within the guide of the aggregater but folks have to learn to wisely, and creatively use the space they have to answer some of those questions themselves.

Okay Champions!

Joe you are almost there, president! However, the idea that a consumer is satisfied with only the 'price discovery' is a farce. For many dealers who have survived a turbulent transitional era in automotive retail spaces (and for some who have not...), the idea that each and every auto deal stands on its own merit has been established.

At Auto Buyer Consultants, my company down here right in Atlanta, GA, I have been working through an idea I shared with Chip and the crew at AT many years back - let's call it '04 or '05 when they came up with the "create your dealership on our website" concept. It is called "Active Communicating", and it has tremendous scope, so I am challenging myself here to keep it focused on your synthesis of thought, Joe.

Active Communicating will work something like this for auto retail present.

'A Handshake' is the currency of an Information Age (not Internet Age, Joe) wherein the commerce is 'Socialization' and the commodity 'Information'.

At the root of the problem preventing AT and Cars from being able to optimize their current value propositions (and the Revenue Models attached to them) is they are in the capsule of an 'advertising age' - no pun intended.

You see, Joe, advertising is becoming obsolete each and every day. It has been surpassed in an Information Age by ACTIVE COMMUNICATIONS. When I recognized these things, I began to build out the first auto retail platform that targets 'consultants' - the top 20% to 25% of auto retail professional sales consultants, that is. I recognized the value proposition the consumer seeks has always been dependent upon a conversation between these two parties - 'the consultant' and 'the consumer'.

So, (stay focused, Dee) the key to auto retail future is to remove as many unnecessary layers between these two as possible, and to initiate the handshake as early as possible.

At AT and Cars, the handshake has yet to be identified as the 'Currency' of an Information Age, and they therefore offer a subscription-based value proposition to dealers (both on the verge of obsolescence, today) that ignores the value of the actual transaction.

If these vendors you cry out to for ROI are to REALLY introduce something, then it should be a product based upon "Active Communicating" which harnesses the valuable conversation between the two most essential components of any auto retail transaction. They would harness the manpower of the dealer clients they currently struggle to keep on their subscriber lists by leveraging a transaction-based proposition to the professional consultants responsible for managing the conversations and handshakes that are the true ROI.

Give me a call if I got off focus, champion. I think I brought it home well, though.

I'm not sure if its the 2005 Dalla Valle Cabernet I'm enjoying tonight but I can not understand what the hell Donnel Rawls just said.

Joe
Are you suggesting that the link to the dealer site pops up a landing page with lead capture designs, created by the dealer? What happens when they do not fill out the page, where do they go?

Excellent Wine Brian;

Alright, here it is plain and simple.

Capture 'the handshake', capture the ROI.

Who handles the handshake? Consultants, for over 120 years. If AT and Cars are to survive an Information Age zeitgeist shift, then they must Stop Selling Subscriptions, and Start Selling Results.

Easy enough, I think to enjoy with your wine - you can call this "cheese".

And, call me tomorrow champion.

BP, Default = no "gateway page", just links to the dealers page as it does now. Dealer opt in creates gateway page.

Thanks Joe;

Gotta love the synthesis of thought. It made us an alphabet, a Bible and even cars (and God knows automobiles have come a long way, baybee!).

Dealers don't sell cars. They do run businesses where cars are sold (hopefully).

At least 90% of auto retail customers never even meet the dealer from whom's business their auto is purchased. But, in an age when socialization is important already, and becoming vastly more important each day, this is the disconnect.

A consumer is willing to buy a car from (you all know this...) 'someone they believe, like, and trust'. Almost always, this is a consultant they meet as a professional representative of the dealer.

All I am saying here is, AT and Cars would do well to introduce themselves to these same professional representatives at the dealers they currently serve. It would mean they (AT and Cars) begin to leverage a portion of the industry sector that is growing vs. shrinking - units are up almost 40% while dealerships are down grossly more.

Its easy! Afterall, I am not that damn smart. Remember, I began this journey as 'just a sales guy'. Condescending remarks are condiments for my coffee. I just leave them where they are...

Donnel,

Whatever is in your head ain't making it to print.

If you have something to sell that will help our industry, then write your own article and submit it. What ever connections your trying to make to this thread are un-related.

Thanks Joe;

Will do...

Donnel,

I'm having a tough time following you. I have a feeling you're onto something, but it just isn't coming out.

We can try this on the Automotive Advertising Network and see what happens.

I am on vacation, I return March 10th.

Sales inquiries (software/operation/marketing)
---Hold until April 10th and re-send.

Advertising offers
---send to our ad agency, email to:[email protected]

Billing Matters
---can sent to [email protected]

Issues needing a Store Manager:

[email protected]
(manager: DJ Mollica & asst. manager: Fran Cardinal)

[email protected]
(manager: Peter Detor and asst manager: Randy Sasso)

[email protected]
(manager: Rob Curcio & asst manager: Bob Cziesler)



VERY Important issues that can't wait until I return, should be sent to Todd Caputo's attention at: [email protected]

cool. I see 2 opportunities to exploit.

#1). VDP to Gateway%
(number of clicks & quality of leads [bounce rate, %forms submitted])

#2). Gateway form optimization

Thank You Alex;

At any dealership, the conversation that ultimately results in a transaction is between a consultant and a consumer, right?

And, at AT and Cars, the primary objective is to get the dealers inventory/offering in front of the consumer via online ads - and start the conversation, right?

Both of these have 'the conversation' as the common point of value.

Through the consultant (sales person), AT and Cars could manage these conversations not only from start, but throughout the entire life cycles of consumers' multiple auto purchases. This multiplicity is key.

In auto retail, Alex, as you understand, each year there is a particular number of units sold that defines the overall success of 'our industry'. Why not look at AT and Cars based upon a percentage of this number? Why not ask Chip and Mr. Golub, "what percentage of the total global market do you expect to DELIVER using your products?"

Based upon the percentage, challenge these companies to make their services into transaction-based offerings. So, if AT and Cars say they are responsible for 25% of all auto retail transactions globally, dealers who run the business that hire AT and Cars can assign a specific value to their service offerings.

The consultants (sales persons) responsible for conducting these transactions represent the new client channel for AT and Cars, if they are to come to market with a transaction-based offering.

So, once again, AT and Cars need to offer a service to the consultants that leverages the value of the conversations kept with the consumers
and attach to it a transaction-based revenue model.

Let me know Alex, if this is any clearer. Thanks champion!

Dont know where all this came from. Dont know what you are all on. Dont know what half of you are saying. Dont know what this article was origianlly about.

Analytics on a couple dealers show about 165 clicks to dealer site from AutoTrader.com - with a conversion rate (not including phone calls) of 16%. IMO, this means the dealer is getting 16 more leads a month. In the CRM they show as dealer website, shouldn't they be sourced as ATC? But then again, what made them convert? Dealer site or ATC?

LOL...it should be 26 leads a month (165 * 16%)....but you guys get the point. This is one dealer. I have a couple more than show similar stats.

Drew,

If every dealer had a good CRM system, analytics that tracked form conversions by referrers on their website, and incentivized their staff to interview for the proper ad source this whole article would be pointless. That is where this all came from.

If we want to start pointing fingers...

Yes, it is really the dealer's lack of awareness that he should be looking at this stuff that creates this situation. Yes, it is the vendor's faulty providing of the right tracking metrics that creates this situation. Yes, it is Autotrader & Cars.com's pricing and non-transparency that has added to this situation.

However...

It sounds like Autotrader is finally adding "BOB" (Big Orange Button) to help alleviate some of this. I bet Cars.com will not be far behind.

Alex
That idea of clear links back to the dealer's website...mmmmm...that's sounds so much like the AAN?

@Alex - Ya, I was actually happy to hear about "BOB", esp with some of the dealer analytics I see....if this one dealer is already getting 165 clicks/visits a month from ATC...imagine now with BOB!

The problem will then become trying to explain why Autotrader's BOB reports shows so many more customers clicking to the dealer website than the dealer website analytics show are actually coming from Autotrader.

I had to learn about click report differences at Checkered Flag years ago. Talking about security preferences, firewalls, ghost browsers, and proxies is always a fun conversation with someone who could care less about that stuff.

Maybe Autotrader will get smart and talk to the major dealership web hosting companies about finding a way to make the numbers match better. If they don't do that, we're all going to be stressed around BOB within 30 days of its launch.

I sat through an early introduction of BOB with AutoTrader and it was clear they added this feature for a reason. Through consumer behavioral tracking it was clear the customer was visiting the dealership website anyways so why not make it easier for the consumer to do what they are going to do. Plus is a traceable wil for AutoTrader.com

Man - I think you are missing the forest and focusing on one tree. I could care less about a 1-2% variance. ATC for last month shows 169 clicks, we show 165...pretty close IMO. K.I.S.S...don’t make it harder than it actually is or should be. I would rather ATC focus on getting my dealers customers, rather than talking to web hosting companies.

Drew - you're looking at 1 dealership's reports and making some HUGE generalizations from that.

Yes - the reference 165 is one dealer. However - I am looking at 5 -- 3 on Dealer.com and 2 on Cobalt- all with similar variances.

I bring this up because Checkered Flag sits in a market with over 100,000 people in that market surfing from behind some significant security (Navy, Army, Marines, Contractors, etc). Anytime we compared clicks between reports there were massive discrepancies.

I don't know where your 5 dealers are that you're looking at Drew, but I agree it is good to see Autotrader making this change.

As the leader of the Cars.com ad product management team, I’ve found this thread to be very helpful and I want to share some thoughts in terms of how Cars.com facilitates the relationship between buyer and seller. We strongly believe in allowing the consumer multiple ways to contact a seller with multiple entry points to a dealer’s website on vehicle detail pages and within our dealer directory. In fact, each month we generate over 1 million visits to individual dealer sites and we’ve been providing this form of contact to our customers for many years.

Know that we're listening to this feedback as we continually work on improving our product to provide the best car shopping experience for both shoppers and dealers. Driving traffic to your web sites is very valuable for many potential buyers and clearly beneficial to dealers. I’m not certain that it should take precedence over other forms of contact but it is something that we will continue to track and potentially improve.

Michael - thanks for your comments and thanks for listening. It's great to hear from a Cars.com representative.

Keep in mind only 20% of consumers will ever be willing to fill out an online form of the such. Only a percentage are going to pick up the phone and call the dealership, a percentage will walk-in.

"Driving traffic to your web sites is very valuable for many potential buyers and clearly beneficial to dealers. I’m not certain that it should take precedence over other forms of contact but it is something that we will continue to track and potentially improve."

My response would; knowing what we know about consumer shopping habits, targeted traffic/clicks to my dealership website would on the same level of importance.

Joe -

You stated a couple of times that there are still too many unanswered questions after an online automotive shopper has done their research and price discovery. I'm curious as to what information you feel a shopper can find on the dealer's website that they would not find in the online listings of a dealer doing a good job merchandising their inventory on ATC or cars.com.

There is so much specific vehicle information, multiple photos, dealership information, payment calculators, links to advice on buying, financing, leasing, insuring, online credit application, etc., what else is left for the shopper to ask other than, "do you still have the car?" And, in the case of a new car, if the dealer doesn't have THAT one, they'll have or can get another one just like it.

A prominent link to the dealer's web site (like ATC's BOB) is a great idea, but I don't believe the lack of such a link inhibits an online shopper from being able to proceed to the transaction step.

Studies have shown that what actually happens when the in-market online car buyer "vanishes" at the transaction step, as you put it, is that nearly 3/4 of them have done all of their online research and are now on their way to the dealership(s) that has the vehicle(s) of their choice. You can't touch, see or "drive" the product before the transaction step of an online air travel purchase, but you can with an automobile and that's the difference.

If I wanted to buy a new 55" flat screen television, I'd go online, do my research, do my price discovery and then.....I'd drive down to Best Buy or whatever retailer carried the TV I wanted so that I could first experience the picture and sound quality - and also make sure there wasn't something else I liked better - before making the transaction. Why would I call or email the store before doing so? I wouldn't, and studies show that most car buyers don't either.

As Alex pointed out, the problem is that most Dealer Principals don't incentivise or make it a condition of employment that salespeople and sales managers ACCURATELY ascertain from walk-in traffic what primarily influenced them to be in that dealership on that day to look at that car. Selecting "Drive by" should require management confirmation to be allowed in the stats.

Drew,

I am on vaca, so details won't be rich with data.

#1). All clicks are NOT equal, think conversion funnel, then re-read my work.

#2). Re-look at the Google Analytics referral links, about 60% are from VDPs (aka Eureka! Link referrals).

#3). A VDP referral visit is what I consider VERY VERY rich ROI visitor. (Your example: 165 visitors * 60% = 99 highly motivated Eureka! Link visitors)

#4). On AT/Cars VDP to dealer link, add a "gateway page" with a strong shopper incentive (i.e. coupon with 24hr expiration).

If my instincts are correct, this VDP referral visitor is in the 11th hour and is looking for any excuse to make the commitment to visit the dealer.

Drew, the exercise here is to focus on only ONE link on the VDP and understand what the link means to the shopper.

Drew, you are the master of CL world. This "Eureka! Link" applies to you as well. Casual shoppers don't visit dealers sites until they're ready to take it to the next level.

Alex, in the land of unicorns and rainbows, your reply is right on the money. But... my very good friend, you've missed some stuff!

#1). Reps can't interview ups for lead sources without the shopper feeling like they are giving away secrets.

#2). Shoppers who are ups have spent 19hours on sites all over the internet, and have taken weeks and months to become an up. Any interview of an unsold up looking for lead source info is prone to significant error.

Alex, IMO adding a BOB is BULL. It's simply increasing the visibility of the dealer's link.

The number of visits to dealer sites will rise. Even if the BOB button DOUBLES VDP referral traffic, the it'll still be a tiny part of a dealers overall web traffic.

The Eureka! (BOB) visitor is a HIGH ROI visitor.

#1). Let's toss that visitor a rich offer with a strong call to action that expires quickly!

#2). what of the lack of shopper visibility (which is the CORE problem of AT and Cars)?

Michael,

You drive a million visits to dealers web sites yet, you and your dealers HAVE NO IDEA what that means to anyone (including you). There is a big ass disconnect between classified sites and dealer sales and this disconnect is the root of dealer angst.

This post is a mental exercise in how to find leverage points on your platform, create tools to improve the shopper & dealer experience in one move.

Lightenup,

On Vaca, I have MANY rebuttals to your reply, but, the wife is giving me the "Evil look" the ocean is calling! look for my reply asap!

Ya...Craigslist and Cars apply as well. Craigslist conversion is slighly higher. But on Craigslist this same dealer gets alot of people that click on the "get financing" link.

Drew, more Eureka! link evidence. Compare the Eureka! link conversion ratio to the site overall. 16% is a very strong number in my book.

Problem: We cannot tell what the closing ratio is for these visitors, ergo the Eureka! Link Gateway lead tool.

Joe, been trying to follow this thread from my phone and I'm going off memory of reading your comments...so if I'm totally wrong about your insinuation I apologize up front.

So you agree that the new AutoTrader BOB link is a step in the right direction (I do). However you are saying there needs to be more. We need to somehow incentives the customer to SHOW. A Lead to Show incentive? ...a Circus Barker??

Lightenup, you wrote:

"Joe, You stated a couple of times that there are still too many unanswered questions after an online automotive shopper has done their research and price discovery... There is so much specific vehicle information, multiple photos, dealership information, payment calculators, links to advice on buying, financing, leasing, insuring, online credit application, etc., what else is left for the shopper to ask other than, "do you still have the car?" ...."

Roll with me Lightenup, you're on a roll, but, LOOK deeper and ask for all the evidence that would agree with your conclusion(s). I ask you... WHERE ARE THE EAGER BUYERS asking dealers everywhere... "do you still have the car?"

FAIL.

Wipe all your pre-conceptions clean and try to find the "HOLE" in shopping trail. We have to remember that this is CATALOG shopping, not ecommerce shopping. Just like your projection TV example, Catalog shopping end-game is a visit to the physical store. Tracking conversions and optimizing for conversions -without embracing the catalog shoppers needs- is a setup for a fail.

Lightenup, you ask:

"I'm curious as to what information you feel a shopper can find on the dealer's website that they would not find in the online listings of a dealer doing a good job merchandising their inventory on ATC or cars.com."

IMO, this is the "HOLE" that causes the dis-connect. Many months ago, I was fishing for data for exactly this. See it at: http://forum.dealerrefresh.com/f40/whats-car-shoppers-mind-1025.html

IMO, the only way to do this is a well built study that collects feedback of "in market" shoppers.

LASTLY: SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR. See http://www.dealerrefresh.com/the-internet-shopper-experience-chart/

Finally Mr. Pistell;

This thread activates the truest matter at hand - how to track what an online lead from any AT or Cars feature/page translates into for the dealers in terms of Transactions.

You are right! (And, to think I was about to write an article per your request called "Takin' Joe's Pistell).

SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR!

Every lead on AT or on Cars will have its own merit. Some are dead set on buying the exact car they clicked through. Some are not set on buying any particular car at the time of their visit to the website. Some have been to Edmunds, TrueCar, and every site affiliated with the car they have an interest in buying. They probably won’t pay much profit to who ever sells them their car, especially if it’s a new car. But, some customers research online and still will pay profit.

The point here is, SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR! (Good job Joe!)

Now, I can expound more on this, but it will probably result in Joe telling me to submit my own article about any service I offer that makes "our industry" better, since I have no relevance to such a high-ranking discussion about this matter of creating ROI. Shame, we discuss socialization, and practice the antithesis of it at the same time.

More to come...

Joe wrote: "I ask you... WHERE ARE THE EAGER BUYERS asking dealers everywhere... "do you still have the car?""

That's my point Joe. They aren't calling, they aren't emailing... they are coming in to look at the car. However, because most dealership pay plans encourage the floor salespeople NOT to find out if the customer saw the car on the Internet (for fear of having to split or give up the entire deal), they go uncounted as a conversion. The behavioral end-game that you are seeking - physical visit - is actually happening, it's just not being documented.

Joe wrote: "Roll with me Lightenup, you're on a roll, but, LOOK deeper and ask for all the evidence that would agree with your conclusion(s).
FAIL."

The evidence is in the dealership's showroom on a daily basis. The FAIL is in the evidence technicians (salespeople) failure to collect and categorize the evidence.

J. Kershner;

D. Rawls here superstar champion...

Alright, the 'SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR' comment is the most valuable one in this entire Thread, thus far.

As commented much earlier in this Thread, I believe any new product from AT and Cars will fall short if it does not leverage 'the handshake'.

'THE HANDSHAKE' = (CONSULTANT+CONSUMER) x TRANSACTION

'THE HANDSHAKE'
A can't miss formula for these companies to tout the measure of success they can offer dealer clientele is to produce a means of capturing 'the handshake' earliest, and managing the entire relationship through the consultant/consumer transaction, and hopefully into antiquity.

CONSULTANT
As the eventual manager of the greatest majority of all car deals is the CONSULTANT. Now, in discussions I've had since Joe blasted me for being such a peon, I discovered there are industry personalities who call them "Sales People" or something still more indicative of the traditional hierarchy of auto retail industries that is now obsolete.

An Information Age has most shoppers (well over 80%) absolutely accessing more info than ever before since it is available easily online. 'Easily' is key. A Top Performing Sales Professional (who we call "Consultants") can 'easily' handle all the holes Joe, Mike, LightenUp, and all these potential innovators of AT and Cars products that will somehow become something that traditional advertising has never been-Efficient!

At any traditional online buying service, only one 50% portion of 'the handshake' is trackable. Hence the inability to determine what 'A Million Unique Visitors' means to a dealer client's ROI.

AT and Cars are going to find the next evolution of any online buying service offering with a better value proposition will need to have the ability to track exactly what is happening with the consumer online, and exactly what percentage of them Transacted business with a particular dealer client as a result of any AT or Cars product.

And, in order to deliver such efficiency, AT and Cars will find themselves tapping into the other 50% portion of 'the handshake'. Consultants have always, and always will (in the foreseeable future) manage 'the handshake' of any auto retail transaction. OBS Future will absolutely leverage this!

CONSUMER
A shopper is an independent potential customer of a particular brand or product. 'SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR' is the truest post to this entire Thread, and it takes us along this road. An impulse is necessary to move a shopper from wherever they might be into our 'Transaction'.

Auto retail present is almost out of impulse. The car isn't an impulse most times because 80% of consumers already have studied it well online. Pricing is not even an impulse. AT and Cars must produce a platform for establishing an involuntary inclination prompting to action...

AutoTrader's Chip Perry had the advantage of knowing this 5 or 6 years ago, because I told it to him.

More to come...

Great point here Drew;

A threat of Socialization is we are so early into it that some (mostly, older) pro's will interpret its value based upon a particular set of perspectives that would force it into the capsule of success they have experienced in the past. We both know, auto retail isn't exactly touted for futurisitc and innovative approach - been doing it the same way 120 years!

Connecting dealers' consultants with consumers or customers is the exact bottom line, Drew.

However, at Cox, it would be 2021 before they got through the bureaucratic rigamarow necessary to move an initiative forward to do this, so they just keep beating the dead horse. And Cars is number two, they are only there to follow number one. Its how big business works, and why you see the size of traditional employers shrinking and emergence of entrepreneurship spiking as we get into the action months of 2011.

I got a plan, it gets more customers to you/your dealers' consultants, and we can talk about it if you'd like.

Okay Alex;

"B.O.B." or Big Orange Button is something you like. And, it may have some added value. But, its still another widget to traditional advertising approaches that just are not very efficient.

AT could make a gigantic splash with B.O.B. if they used it as a social media marketing campaign. If they borrow from my ABC Exclusive Auto Buying Clubs model and give general consumers the option of placing the B.O.B. across their social media networks as a means of earning a few bucks, then they get DYNAMIC!

Afterall, 'SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR' (right, Joe) and all the doors to AT that can be opened represent an opportunity for 'the handshake' to occur. And, by leveraging social media, 'the handshake' delivered can actually be a warm one - the most valuable one.

I have more on this, Alex...love to share it with you, champion!

Michael;

As a provider of services to dealers and the overall auto retail industry sector, Cars.com must realize "1 Million Visits to Individual Dealer Sites..." must be improved upon. And, the great news is, in an Information Age it absolutely is possible.

If I know 13 Million cars are forecast to be sold in this year, and Cars.com says to me their product can deliver 1 Million potential car buying consumers per month, then I expect to generate a mean percentage of the 13 Million.

However, this is the pain of Cars.com being owned by a traditional advertising conglomerate. "Active Communicating' is terminology I use when I think of what traditional advertising has evolvled to in 2011, an Information Age. I think, "what if I/we could own 'the conversation' of these 1 Million potential car buying consumers per month?". Inside these conversations are jewels of information that lead to 'the handshake'. I know this is true because I have worked Internet Management and Training inside dealerships on showroom floors and in BDC's since 2003.

So, Michael, if Cars.com is able at the end of 2011 to track that they were responsible for say 10% or 12% of auto retail transactions overall, then the value proposition they offer dealers is one that becomes appreciable and grows in value over time. As Cars.com improves its ability to pull Identifiers from 'the conversation' that begins online and must move into a physical location in order for 'the transaction' to ensue, they will make a more and more efficient product offering for themselves and for their dealer clientele.

I have more on this champion, and would be happy to share...

CONSUMER
A shopper is an independent potential customer of a particular brand or product. 'SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR' is the truest post to this entire Thread, and it takes us along this road. An impulse is necessary to move a shopper from wherever they might be into our 'Transaction'.

Auto retail present is almost out of impulse. The car isn't an impulse most times because 80% of consumers already have studied it well online. Pricing is not even an impulse. AT and Cars must produce a platform for establishing an involuntary inclination prompting to action...

AutoTrader's Chip Perry had the advantage of knowing this 5 or 6 years ago, because I told it to him.

Subscriptions are a poor value proposition in an Information Age. Think about it, what you are paying for in a subscription - simply information. It's free to the consumer to gather all the information a dealer has to offer at traditional OBS's. But, dealers are paying for their access to the info through current AT and Cars subscription-based product models. Why so?

At least a portion of consumers are willing to pay gross profit on a car deal. The approach to traditional advertising takes the portion down percentage-wise because traditional advertising in auto retail for 120 years has conducted a linear conversation (and, let’s remember here the point Joe makes that “SHOPPERS ARE NOT LINEAR”) moving the customer to action primarily on the basis of discount or price driven messaging.

Consumers are not all alike, though. And, this is one of the gigantic pains of traditional advertisers figuring on how to keep their age-old product offerings valuable in an Information Age.

Since consumers are not all alike, ‘the handshake’ which is necessary to deliver a shopper from an online buying service like AT is not always alike, either.

Consumers, hence, are to be driven to the Transaction in any number of ways. As dynamic as consumers are today, it would be impossible to believe any spin on a traditional advertising approach would yield any substantial increase in the percentage transactions a dealer client expects.

A social-based approach to attracting the consumer into the Transaction must be the answer. And, today, the perfect platform for that social-based approach exists.

J. Kershner, consumers/customers, as you well know, are the end client of all OBS’s. All shoppers are not Consumers. And, for 120 years the common denominator in ‘our industry’ (I still can’t help but wonder what exactly Joe Pistell meant by that…) for determining the difference has been the Consultant.

To such point, isn’t easy to see the value of putting the consumer and consultant in ‘the handshake’ mode as soon as possible. Isn’t this what will need to happen anyway, if the shopper is to be converted – whether online, or on premises?

Consumers are social creatures to which we sell our products, and Consultants are the conduit by which we do it in almost every instance.

TRANSACTION
A valuable thing is transpiring online each and every day in an Information Era. Socialization is virtual, now. Because a conversation that once occurred only by phone or physical interactions between prospective consumers/customers is now available online, the sales channel for auto retail has an added dimension.

Transactions are the result of consultants and consumers shaking hands after, during, or in rare instances prior to a conversation about a specific value proposition. That specific value proposition doesn’t exist at AT or at Cars, right now. In example, even cars listed at these OBS’s at clearly competitive prices are being negotiated to less valuable selling propositions for the dealers. This is dysfunctional!

If individual consumers are looking for the one dynamic that moves them to the Transaction point, then individual value propositions must be offered. We are already doing this in auto retail, and have been doing it just this way for 120 years. ‘The handshake’ is how we have done it. And, in this Information Age, it is still how we will do it.

Transactions, let’s say, can come from any one of a 360 degree dynamic. Conversations are the information gathering processes that determine which one. Consultants are prepared with negotiating, product knowledge, and sales process training to help them do this each and every day – several hours at a time. They have the ‘active communicating’ skill down as it pertains to the auto retail process, because they are doing it more often than anyone else.

Transactions are 50% consultant, 50% consumer, and 100% handshake. If a dealer is waiting until a potential consumer from an OBS is actually on the premises to commence ‘the handshake’, then he is shooting himself in the foot. While AT and Cars have products that are relevant to how we all do our work in Auto Retail Present, that they wont need significant innovation behind their next product offerings beyond the idea of driving shoppers to yet another online space is a farce. If I am a dealer who pays to subscribe to their services, I am asking for a per unit breakdown of my cost against which ROI may be measured. The Transactions are eluding AT and Cars on their current platforms.

It is an easy fix. OBS’s must learn to measure the Transaction. There are about 13 Million new cars forecast to be retailed in 2011. If between AT and Cars there are over 25 Million unique shoppers for cars being generated, then this is an instant deduct in the value of their product offering. It says that a subscription to either means I am spending at least 100% more than what I should for each Transaction they are able to deliver. And, that would be if AT and Cars were responsible for 100% of the 13 Million new cars expected to be delivered in 2011.

The fix is inherent what J.D. Rucker is doing through his Hasai offering over at TK Carsites and I do look forward to working with him. At this point, there is more to share. And, of course, “Appreciation Rules Creation” being my life credo, I would be happy to share more of it with you, Jeff.

It seems to me Rawls that somewhere (conveniently) in your math, you failed to figure into your equation the 45 million used vehicles that will be retailed in 2011. Based on your math, you're saying that ATC and Cars.com is worth every penny and dealers need to be on both sites. I'm not following your "instant deduct" theory.

D Rawls - Champion. What you spike your morning OJ with?

"AT could make a gigantic splash with B.O.B. if they used it as a social media marketing campaign." Huh?

This thread has turned so deep into the abyss, I would say we have lost most readers by now. Even the heads of AT and Cars.com are being scratched.

Sitting down with both AutoTrader and Cars.com over the last several weeks, many of the "danced around" recommendations here are not part currently of their near future core philosophy.

Mr. Rawls, you know I love ya but your comments are starting to come across like an agenda to place your services in front of the dealer and AT/cars.

As I continue to try and comprehend all this with my sunday morning mush brain, I'm starting to turn some additional thoughts... But I think it's for another discussion...I think.

D Rawls, you said "I think, "what if I/we could own 'the conversation' of these 1 Million potential car buying consumers per month?". Inside these conversations are jewels of information that lead to 'the handshake'." Now you're talking..and social is one of the possible staples of this happening conversation. But again this is another post/article.

Let's get back onto this Eureka link.

What can AutoTrader and Cars.com do to take the Eureka link to the next level with-in reason. I'm a fan of BOB. I've seen the shopping stats including the habits of consumers on these sites. This is an added measurement/kpi for justifying spending with AutoTrader. It helps prove ME ammunition when I'm reviewing the numbers with Principles and Managers during my monthly/weekely marketing meetings. I'd love to see Cars.com follow suit on this as well.

Thank You TMF;

At the root of this discussion is what AT and Cars might do to deliver a better ROI.

If there are 45 Million used and 13 Million new autos to be retailed in 2011, then the easy measurement of how successful any product offering from these traditional Online Buying Service companies has been is % of total units retailed.

Hope that makes more sense, champion...

Thank You J. Kershner;

Superstar champion and president...

Indeed, you tap into the wealth of the dialogue I create.

"what if AT and/or Cars could own 'the conversation' of these 1 Million potential car buying consumers per month...".

Social is the ONLY way to go with a product like B.O.B. AT has linear visits to there website based upon their humongous marketing spend, and it still is only producing a menial conversion ratio. Hence our discussion.

At social networks across the web there are potential auto buyers who are willing to become our customers. All the relevance AT and Cars offers to consultants (sales people who sell cars, Top Performers) and consumer in auto retail spaces can be optimized and leveraged into a product to capture these potential auto buyers who are willing to become our customers.

If AT took B.O.B. and made it a link sharing, plug-in, or widget device that social networkers could ad to their pages as "doors" to either AutoTrader.com and/or Cars.com, then what we have is a connection to these communities of warm referrals. And, C. Perry took a failed swoop at this in 2005 when he proposed the added value proposition of 'building your dealership online at AutoTrader.com' to dealers subscribing to basic AT product offerings. However, his failure was rooted in the idea that the dealership is the conductor or manager of the transaction with the consumer. AT has millions of visitors to its site, now and is responsible for an unmentionable % of total units retailed.

A prospect exists in the majority of geographically-based auto retail market places to leverage the referral as a means of incentivizing consumers for adding B.O.B. to their social networking pages.

If there are 13 Million new cars and 45 Million used (thank you TMF) retailed in 2011, then AT and Cars can't lose by approaching B.O.B. as a transaction-based revenue model. And, by adding revenue-sharing to the mix, AT and/or Cars puts the entire auto retail universe to work for them.

Just think, if AT and/or Cars goes into dealerships (which are still in shrinkage mode, by the way) in January or February 2012 able to tout that they have the most lively auto retail TRANSACTION production portal in the universe, then what will the complaint be about ROI? If AT and Cars own 50% of total units retailed when all is said and done, then they grow in value. Then, their service offerings to dealers grow in value. Then, we all grow in value. That's appreciation, my champion.

Got more, Jeff...

Alright Champions;

A prosperity meeting I have commitments to attend will curtail my ability to comment for now (surely, some of you are saying, "Thank God!").

I say to you, this.

All that we are doing right here on DealerRefresh.com is a zeitgeist. It represents the commerce of an Information Age. We are socializing, practicing "Active Communicating".

To J. Kershner, I would be remiss if I did not offer commendation for all the effort, perseverance, and vision it has taken for you to make DealerRefresh.com such a valuable destination for the commerce and socialization of Auto Retail Future (and past) to be exchanged. Thank you, All-Star, you are appreciated!

Let's keep up the good work innovating 'our industry' (Joe, just what do you mean by that - exclusion or inclusion).

Your able professional,

D. Rawls

I have a headache.

Jeff K,

The BOB is an example of optimizing a page to produce a new result.

Adding a gateway page off the BOB link is simply a lead generating tool that focuses specifically on that link and that link alone. IMO, the circus barker is the content that goes on that gateway page. If the Circus barker is delivering the WRONG MESSAGE it's a fail.

D Rawls,

I am very pissed at your selfish behavior. You have completely ruined my project here. This is a very complex concept and I consider it important to our industry.

Your replies are totally WACKED OUT and you've totally FUCKED and the threads that follow this topic.

I can't wait to personally meet you and do to you what you've done to me.

When I meet you I will interrupt whom ever you are speaking to and start screaming to takeover your conversation and turn the attention to me.

You behavior is ANTI-SOCIAL. What makes you worse, you are a self centered person that has no idea how selfish you are.

There are a lot of people that agree with me, the smartest thing you will do here and now is to NOT REPLY and STOP TALKING, START READING AND LEARN SOMETHING or YOU WILL BE BANNED HERE.

You have been warned.

Not sure why, but this thread feels like trying to chase a single spaghetti noodle through a 5 gallon pot. Joe wins "most relevant" comment in my opinion. Without an introduction there cannot be a consummation. All points of significant influence have to be considered, not just what the customer "remembers" or is willing to give up at the time they are asked if you are trying to calc ROI on a source.

The last thing a customer does is important, but is it more important than everything else they did along the way? Still waiting on that study that shows what the customer really does for 6 months leading up to the purchase. Where you at Polk?

Head up - we have several moderation to this thread of comments. Discussions were getting a little heated and headed in the wrong direction. It's always interesting to how quick a conversation can be taken down another road.

Let's continue on with the The Eureka! Link.

Lightenup,


I disagree.

#1). Reps can't interview ups for lead sources without the shopper feeling like they are giving away secrets.

#2). Shoppers who are ups have spent 19hours on sites all over the internet, and have taken weeks and months to become an up. Any interview of an unsold up looking for lead source info is prone to significant error.

Don't reinforce the status quo. Challenge it! My BOB gateway suggestion creates a new opportunity.

Like Uncle Joe I was on vacation myself and my wife hates my online addiction.....that being said, WOW! Eureka, Uncle Joe 52 comments and 10 reactions (even after some trimming) !

"DealerRefresh....The whole thing is real " Uncle Joe

Nice work man, lots of good reading here.

Like Uncle Joe I was on vacation myself and my wife hates my online addiction.....that being said, WOW! Eureka, Uncle Joe 52 comments and 10 reactions (even after some trimming) !

"DealerRefresh....The whole thing is real " Uncle Joe

Nice work man, lots of good reading here.

Joe, in your last paragraph you write, "....They’ve invested time and energy into drilling thru classified pages, finding the best choice. The auto shopper who is ready to buy has to visit the dealer(s) in person."

I rest my case.

You also wrote: "what of the lack of shopper visibility (which is the CORE problem of AT and Cars)?"

IMO, that's why shoppers like AT and Cars... shoppers want to be able to do their research, view inventory and narrow their choices without having to become visible. They have plenty of opportunity to reveal themselves through email, phone call or chat. 70% don't do that. Instead, they get in their car and go to the dealership.

You wrote: "Reps can't interview ups for lead sources without the shopper feeling like they are giving away secrets."

Joe - Don't reinforce the status quo - challenge it. Would you refrain from asking if they heard your radio ad or saw your TV ad? Haven't you heard a receptionist answer the phone with, "Are you calling about our sale?" Mentioning to a walk-in customer that more of your advertising budget is going to numerous Internet sites so that shoppers are better informed when they come in, and then asking for help in judging whether those efforts are being seen and, if so, on which site(s) is not asking them to give away any secrets. In fact, asking implies transparency on the dealer's part. Not asking the question implies that you hope they didn't see your (lower) Internet price... which is a whole different topic.

Lightenup,

I am sorry to speak boldly, but, you have shown me that you have zero dealer management experiences to fish from.

For example, You suggest that we teach 25,000 dealers how to train their reps to ask better questions. ...I pause with a puzzling look.... Are you kidding me? Then it hits me. You're lost in the land of rainbows and unicorns, not burning gas and get'in them over the curb. Lightenup, forget teaching them marketing queries, we're 18months into Jerry T's Phone Ninja training and they still suck.

In addition, the real thrust here is simply a mental exercise in exploring digital marketing opportunities from existing traffic. The idea is to challenge the platform to produce more ROI. This should be a never ending project for AT and Cars.com.

I was really hoping for a great intellectual challenge from you. From your reply, I am sorry to say, replies have little value to this thread.

Joe - Not to ask better questions (which couldn't hurt), but to ask the darn question in the first place, which you think will alienate the walk-in customer somehow. You want more shopper visibility from your online marketing but don't want to ask the shopper that's right in front of you if they were online. Whatever.

I get a lot out of your many posts Joe and you offer many thought provoking ideas. However, apparently you are so used to never being disagreed with that you feel anyone with a differing opinion is incapable of intellectually challenging you or offering any value to your thought processes. In this thread alone, you've suggested that both Alex and I live in the land of unicorns and rainbows. Must be nice to be the only one rooted in reality. I can only aspire to your level.

BTW, over a decade of dealership new & used management experience under my belt, putting cars over the curb, burning gas, in the street, down the road. Been there, done that successfully.

Joe - Not to ask better questions (which couldn't hurt), but to ask the darn question in the first place, which you think will alienate the walk-in customer somehow. You want more shopper visibility from your online marketing but don't want to ask the shopper that's right in front of you if they were online. Whatever.

I get a lot out of your many posts Joe and you offer many thought provoking ideas. However, apparently you are so used to never being disagreed with that you feel anyone with a differing opinion is incapable of intellectually challenging you or offering any value to your thought processes. In this thread alone, you've suggested that both Alex and I live in the land of unicorns and rainbows. Must be nice to be the only one rooted in reality. I can only aspire to your level.

BTW, over a decade of dealership new & used management experience under my belt, putting cars over the curb, burning gas, in the street, down the road. Been there, done that successfully.

Thank You Lightenup;

As a tribute to your apparent understanding that Joe is defying the ideal of 'socialization' in the fashion by which he has tried to bully across only his own perspective, I share with you the following link. It probably makes sense to you, and to other open-minded professionals trying to intelligently discuss the idea of how to increase ROI for offerings from products like those of AT and Cars.

http://extanz.com/2009/10/23/should-we-re-think-the-lead-generation-funnel/

Lightenup,

I publicly apologize for my unfair reply. I was out of line and I need a bitch-slap. I ask myself when I write, would I say that to your face. If yes, then aok. If no and I post it anyway, then I have failed myself and my fellow DR members.

D Rawls,

I also owe you a public apology. Although I have issues with your posts, I failed to temper my response and I completely flamed out and made an ass of myself.

I have but one mission. To sell MORE cars. I must learn to ignore everything else.

I hope you accept my apology and we can move forward.

No problem Joe, I've done it too. You just need another vacation.

Jeff et al,

Wanted to respond to a few things mentioned here

First, as a unicorn owner I'm a little offended by the implications thereof but seriously there are some good points being made by this thread. I want to clarify the number of web site links refers to all portions of Cars.com so the impact is really on both the used and new car segments not just the 12-13mm annualized new vehicle space-- but the much larger used category as well.

As to creating essentially an intercept offer as a person is clicking over to a dealer's site, I think there's merit there to try something and we are discussing with customers and consumers as to the practicality. One of the more intriguing parts of the idea is translating that to a mobile/app environment where the possibility exists of creating an offer that truly matches up to the timing of the mobile shopper -- latest stage and deciding where to buy.

As evidenced by this thread, it's really tough to judge what will be valued and what won't be by the dealer. Email close rates are still used by many dealers to justify their online ad spend-- yet the number one consumer complaint we receive is lack of response to their email.

We will to continue to innovate to provide more means to drive shoppers to your stores-- our first in the industry leadership in phone tracking and chat are good examples. Stay tuned and keep the ideas coming.